Why is it unbelievable I can drive 300+ ?

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Jimdangles

I have the 105 ss so stiff was the obvious answer for me but if youre on the verge you should probably get fitted. If you were to not get fitted I would lean towards stiffer rather than softer.

Typically, I believe if you have any doubts or questions and cannot get fitted... you should probably lean towards Regular rather than Stiff. I personally thought this was a "rule of thumb" for those golfers who do not know their SS and do not care to know it.

[Jimdangles]

Originally Posted by Spyder

Typically, I believe if you have any doubts or questions and cannot get fitted... you should probably lean towards Regular rather than Stiff. I personally thought this was a "rule of thumb" for those golfers who do not know their SS and do not care to know it.

I think I have heard that but I dont know how much I believe it. I would rather battle a push or a pull vs a slice or snap hook. Also This may be because people may over estimate their drives and think they are faster than they are rather than all the modest guys in the world saying, "There is no way I drove it 270. I couldn't possibly swing that hard".

I think the philosophy of rather go softer is for that reason more than anything else.

We also know by now Jimbo has one of the harder swings and should probably be moving up. I cant imagine that he was a swing speed similar to tour pros and shouldn't be using an x stiff.

[Spyder]

Well in his case, definitely S or XS. But for the general amateur, they typically need a more flexible shaft than what they are using from what I've seen around me.

[tiger187126]

Originally Posted by Spyder

Well in his case, definitely S or XS. But for the general amateur, they typically need a more flexible shaft than what they are using from what I've seen around me.

definitely get fitted.

but on the side of which to err i think you would do less damage if you went stiffer than necessary if you were on the edge. you'll lose distance, but your flight will be straighter than if you have a shaft that's too flexible for you. but that's for people who are on the border, i know what you're talking about. a lot of guys have ego stiff or xstiff drivers that they don't swing nearly fast enough to warrant.

also, i think swing style/tempo is a contributing factor to the shaft stiffness as well. if you're herky jerky you could use a stiffer shaft than someone who is butter smooth.

it's so easy and free to get fitted for a driver (if you're buying one) that i don't know why everyone who gets one doesn't just get fitted right there. now i don't go into all the shaft options and things like that, but i'll hit 5-10 different drivers and look at the results and compare the feel.

[Jimbo Slice]

I totally understand I would need a fitting to find out what shaft  would fit me best, but didn't want to pay the extra cash to get it done. I don't trust Dicks Or Golf Galaxy's hardware and software, pus already have some data to help choose a shaft. 105-115 ss on average, higher then average ball flight with up to double optimal spin with the current stiff shaft, 5000rpms or higher at times.. If I don't return it for an XS shaft, its no big deal, I would rather re-shaft it later with an after market shaft anyhow. I was just looking for a general rule of thumb.

[daSeth]

For a guy like you, XS is definitely in order.  I switched myself and found it much easier to keep the ball down and in play.  I am not as fast as you, so I'd think it's a no brainer to go XS.

[Lihu]

I am also new to golf, and have been inundated by people recommending softer flex, and at the same time slowing down my swing speed. I don't know about you, but when I slow down my body moves in a jerky fashion. This is because it is not my natural tempo. Try moving really slowly in a controlled path, rather than in a relaxed turning motion at your natural tempo. You will definitely feel your muscles firing in a slow sequence. Most of the folks here know golf really well. I saw many answers that emote lots of good experience. However, only you know your own body, and what it is capable of doing. When I used a regular flex, the ball would go wild. Stiff made if more straight. Now, still have a problem with high ball flight. I think I might be hitting too far down on the ball when I swing harder. Plus the swing mechanics of a full swing seem much more difficult to get right. Logically, I would go with Xstiff as a rule. Your swing speed is high enough to make up any potential distance loss. Also, your swing is not as smooth as some, and the stiffer shaft helps reduce secondary oscillations. I am starting to add test sensors to some of my clubs now, and am playing around with some gyros and accelerometers, to find some answers. Tried out a I20 (generally for low handicappers) with a really stiff shaft. It lowered the ball flight, but, unfortunately could not test it on the range. Not sure how it would work for me on the course. I don't really understand the rational for people recommending regular shafts for beginners. It seems to me that a beginner would benefit from using an extra stiff shaft. If a beginner has a high swing speed following his natural cadence. And his Swing mechanics is not that good. A stiffer shaft will produce less torque and oscillations. You can pretty much swing yourself out of your shoes, and still hit straight (assuming you hit it anywhere within a quarter sized sweet spot). However, as a beginner, I am also focused on my short game and putting. Mid irons are hard for me to get acceptable. The driver is important, but as long as you hit fairways (even 190 to 200 yards on average), it seems to me you can get down to 82. My 12 year old son does just that. He is working on his short game and mainly putting to break into the 70s. Imagine making greens in regulation only to 4 put occasionally. I hope your next thread will read something like "why is it hard to believe I can hit greens in regulation and shoot in the 70s after only 1 year of playing".

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Jimbo Slice

I totally understand I would need a fitting to find out what shaft  would fit me best, but didn't want to pay the extra cash to get it done. I don't trust Dicks Or Golf Galaxy's hardware and software, pus already have some data to help choose a shaft. 105-115 ss on average, higher then average ball flight with up to double optimal spin with the current stiff shaft, 5000rpms or higher at times.. If I don't return it for an XS shaft, its no big deal, I would rather re-shaft it later with an after market shaft anyhow. I was just looking for a general rule of thumb.

Jimbo,

Just take this information as one person's experience, not any "rule of thumb."  Meaning that there are other variables that could be contributing factors here.  When I got my current driver I was fitted with an X flex shaft from these guys ... http://thesandtrap.com/t/58537/the-sand-trap-visits-callaway-golf-razr-fit-driver-fitting-at-the-ely-callaway-performance-center/0_30#post_718608

They didn't measure my swing speed, but if Golfsmith's hardware from a few months previous is to be believed, I am around 105 mph.  Not exactly X-flex territory, but the fitter at Callaway watched me hit with my current shaft at the time (S flex Diamana Ahina) and when he switched me to the X flex, the dispersion of my shots decreased quite a bit.  And as a bonus I saw very little distance lost.

My opinion, based on my experience only, is that you don't need to be scared of a stronger flex because the accuracy gained far outweighed any lost distance.

[tiger187126]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Jimbo,

Just take this information as one person's experience, not any "rule of thumb."  Meaning that there are other variables that could be contributing factors here.  When I got my current driver I was fitted with an X flex shaft from these guys ... http://thesandtrap.com/t/58537/the-sand-trap-visits-callaway-golf-razr-fit-driver-fitting-at-the-ely-callaway-performance-center/0_30#post_718608

They didn't measure my swing speed, but if Golfsmith's hardware from a few months previous is to be believed, I am around 105 mph.  Not exactly X-flex territory, but the fitter at Callaway watched me hit with my current shaft at the time (S flex Diamana Ahina) and when he switched me to the X flex, the dispersion of my shots decreased quite a bit.  And as a bonus I saw very little distance lost.

My opinion, based on my experience only, is that you don't need to be scared of a stronger flex because the accuracy gained far outweighed any lost distance.

this is what a pro at a course told me one time. if everyone used the stiffest flex they could they would hit it straight, but it wouldn't go very far.

that's why i figured erring on the side of stiffer is a better decision. it's not like a guy who can hit it 300 is going to hurt his game by hitting it 280 and straighter.

[Spyder]

When we're talking about a true, beginner golfer, we're talking about someone who would most likely think they swing faster than they do. More often than not, they end up buying a shaft that is too stiff for them. I have seen this happen so often around me that I find it hard to believe that it would be isolated to a little bubble here in Northern Ohio and not widespread. It's not always necessarily an ego boost to go S or XS either, but simply guessing their own swing speed. I have seen many golfers go down to R or S from an XS and play the ball with much more control than they had, and hit more fairways than they were as well.

If you're swinging around 80-90mph, an XS could be detrimental to your game. It's not just a general misconception that "you'll be fine, you may just push or pull some shots here and there!". That's not true at all.

Personally, I'm right around 108 and use a Stiff. I can play R but I tend to push a lot of shots with them because the head doesn't seem to "snap" back to the proper position to promote a straight or drawing ball flight, which is what I typically hit with my Stiff. Now, I have tried an XS and I was all over the place, usually pulling the ball left. I went back to my Stiff and have been using it all year and I will not go back to XS because I"m not "more accurate and losing a few yards".

Everyone is different, that is a fact. Everyone has different timing, tempo, torque, etc. In general though, I believe far too many people purchase the S or XS when they don't even know their swing speed and think it's what they need, or the macho man thing to do. I don't get it.

[Jimdangles]

Originally Posted by Spyder

When we're talking about a true, beginner golfer, we're talking about someone who would most likely think they swing faster than they do. More often than not, they end up buying a shaft that is too stiff for them. I have seen this happen so often around me that I find it hard to believe that it would be isolated to a little bubble here in Northern Ohio and not widespread. It's not always necessarily an ego boost to go S or XS either, but simply guessing their own swing speed. I have seen many golfers go down to R or S from an XS and play the ball with much more control than they had, and hit more fairways than they were as well.

If you're swinging around 80-90mph, an XS could be detrimental to your game. It's not just a general misconception that "you'll be fine, you may just push or pull some shots here and there!". That's not true at all.

Personally, I'm right around 108 and use a Stiff. I can play R but I tend to push a lot of shots with them because the head doesn't seem to "snap" back to the proper position to promote a straight or drawing ball flight, which is what I typically hit with my Stiff. Now, I have tried an XS and I was all over the place, usually pulling the ball left. I went back to my Stiff and have been using it all year and I will not go back to XS because I"m not "more accurate and losing a few yards".

Everyone is different, that is a fact. Everyone has different timing, tempo, torque, etc. In general though, I believe far too many people purchase the S or XS when they don't even know their swing speed and think it's what they need, or the macho man thing to do. I don't get it.

But the OP has a proven swing speed of 115 or so.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Jimdangles

But the OP has a proven swing speed of 115 or so.

I understand that, which is why I said Jimbo should be S at the least and most likely an XS based off of general knowledge.

Another poster then tried to generalize that "Most" golfers would benefit from a stiffer shaft, as opposed to a more flexible shaft. I offered insight as to why I believe otherwise.

[daSeth]

Originally Posted by Spyder

I understand that, which is why I said Jimbo should be S at the least and most likely an XS based off of general knowledge.

Another poster then tried to generalize that "Most" golfers would benefit from a stiffer shaft, as opposed to a more flexible shaft. I offered insight as to why I believe otherwise.

I tend to agree...

So what is the general guidline for a switch from X to XS?  I have asked this question before on another thread and really didn't get a good answer.  For me, I am guessing I swing ~105.  I was playing S and really aprehensive on going to XS.  Looking back on it, for me it was a great move.  I hit the ball much straighter.  I don't feel as though I hit as many bombs.  However on average, I think I am actually longer because I am hitting the ball a lot straighter and a lot lower.  Even the mis-hits are going 250-260 in the fairway, or at least in play.  I used to be in the trouble off the tee 2-3 times per round.  Now, it's once every 2 or 3 rounds.  Granted, some of that is improvement in skill (not attributable to the shaft)...

IMO, Jimbo is an XS all the way due to the 115+ mph.  I don't think there is any question about it.  Here is some data from GolfSmith's website ( http://www.golfsmith.com/display?page=learn_how5 ):

Shaft Flex	Driver Swing Speed (mph)	Driver Carry Distance (yards)	Club from 150 yards
Extra-Stiff	105 +	260 +	8 or 9-iron
Stiff	90-105	240-260	6 or 7-iron
Regular	80-95	210-240	5 or 6-iron
Flexible (A-Flex)	70-85	180-210	4-iron
Ladies	Less than 70	Less than 180	3-iron/lofted wood

But very few players are Jimbo.  I would love to hear what the guys with higher swing speeds think...  What is the breaking point for S and XS?

[Lihu]

I understand your point now. Thanks for the insight on the general use of a regular shaft, which was my mistake. Only from my personal experience, the opposite was true. When I first started golfing I was told to use a 12 degree regular shaft with a low kick, when I was obviously hitting a high pull hook with a 10.5 and regular shaft. So, I bought the 12 degree club from my coaches' pro-shop. This turned out to be a really bad idea, unless I was duck hunting. I hit further up in the air than forward. The shots were within 1" on the sweet spot of the club, but the shots went airborne. Realizing that this was a serious mistake, I was then recommended to purchase a 10.5 degree regular shaft. This too created a tendency toward a pull hook. As I got my swing tuned to a very specific speed, everything worked great. However, it was hard to get that small band of speed consistently. It was about 60 to 70% effort. Being a beginner, it was really hard for me to swing a specific speed consistently. Plus, my swing was not that smooth. So, I ended up getting my swing speed measured, and my swing speed was consistently around 105. This was a bordline Stiff according to the store technicians. I decided to spend the money on a stiff club with a mid kick. This was a risk, in my mind, because of a general rule of thumb against beginners using a stiff shaft. Finally, within a two month period, I got a club that worked for me. I still hit high shots, but theyawede in the direction I wanted. The issue is that two coaches, who knew my swing, were completely wrong about the shaft and loft I needed to use as a beginner. This was probably based on the anti-"macho" rule of thumb. I'm definitely not macho. They should rename the shafts from "stiff" to "more control" or something like that. I would think that less torque and flex would have a more predictable swing path for the club head. Unless, using a stiffer shaft makes your body do unpredictable things. Anyway, I felt I wasted a lot of money to get three clubs, where only one was needed.

[tiger187126]

Originally Posted by Spyder

I understand that, which is why I said Jimbo should be S at the least and most likely an XS based off of general knowledge.

Another poster then tried to generalize that "Most" golfers would benefit from a stiffer shaft, as opposed to a more flexible shaft. I offered insight as to why I believe otherwise.

i had the opposite problem. i had slowed down my driver swing because i was almost scared of it and got fitted for a cleveland xl270 with a regular flex with my 80-85ish mph swing. well as my confidence grew my actual swing speed was in the mid 90s and the driver could not cope with it. i could actually feel the head moving as i got close to the ball and after contact. i would hit hard pulls, vicious slices, and other random shots and i just couldn't figure it out.

i demoed an rbz with a stiff shaft for fun one day and it was a miracle. i could swing as hard as i wanted and it went straight and deep. i hit a bucket of balls with the thing and it was the real deal.

now according to the second swing article on here, stiff in an rbz driver is actually stiff/xstiff. i'm barely in stiff territory by the chart, but i wouldn't go back to regular or regular/stiff even if it gave me an extra 10 yards because as long as my setup and swing are where they're supposed to be this driver does exactly what it's supposed to do.

[daSeth]

Originally Posted by Lihu

I understand your point now. Thanks for the insight on the general use of a regular shaft, which was my mistake.

Only from my personal experience, the opposite was true.

When I first started golfing I was told to use a 12 degree regular shaft with a low kick, when I was obviously hitting a high pull hook with a 10.5 and regular shaft. So, I bought the 12 degree club from my coaches' pro-shop. This turned out to be a really bad idea, unless I was duck hunting. I hit further up in the air than forward. The shots were within 1" on the sweet spot of the club, but the shots went airborne.

Realizing that this was a serious mistake, I was then recommended to purchase a 10.5 degree regular shaft. This too created a tendency toward a pull hook. As I got my swing tuned to a very specific speed, everything worked great. However, it was hard to get that small band of speed consistently. It was about 60 to 70% effort. Being a beginner, it was really hard for me to swing a specific speed consistently. Plus, my swing was not that smooth.

So, I ended up getting my swing speed measured, and my swing speed was consistently around 105. This was a bordline Stiff according to the store technicians.

I decided to spend the money on a stiff club with a mid kick. This was a risk, in my mind, because of a general rule of thumb against beginners using a stiff shaft.

Finally, within a two month period, I got a club that worked for me. I still hit high shots, but theyawede in the direction I wanted.

The issue is that two coaches, who knew my swing, were completely wrong about the shaft and loft I needed to use as a beginner. This was probably based on the anti-"macho" rule of thumb. I'm definitely not macho.

They should rename the shafts from "stiff" to "more control" or something like that. I would think that less torque and flex would have a more predictable swing path for the club head. Unless, using a stiffer shaft makes your body do unpredictable things.

Anyway, I felt I wasted a lot of money to get three clubs, where only one was needed.

Heh, if you are swinging at 105, there is no R about it.  It's XS or S but more than likely XS.  And whoever recommended R for you, the two coaches, I'd recommend finding new coaches.  The shaft should match the swing speed, not the level of play.  Being a beginner and having the wrong equipment is pretty tough.  It would be equally hard for a beginner, swinging 80 mph and playing an XS 9.5*.  The ball wouldn't ever get off the ground.

At 105 mph you swing a lot faster than the average recreational player and faster than some really good players out there.  Have you given a 9.5* or an 8.5* a go?  Generally higher swing speed translates to needing a lower loft for the driver.  I'd also recommend swinging around 85%, it's hard to control your body and the club when deliberately trying to swing slower.

[daSeth]

Originally Posted by tiger187126

i had the opposite problem. i had slowed down my driver swing because i was almost scared of it and got fitted for a cleveland xl270 with a regular flex with my 80-85ish mph swing. well as my confidence grew my actual swing speed was in the mid 90s and the driver could not cope with it. i could actually feel the head moving as i got close to the ball and after contact. i would hit hard pulls, vicious slices, and other random shots and i just couldn't figure it out.

i demoed an rbz with a stiff shaft for fun one day and it was a miracle. i could swing as hard as i wanted and it went straight and deep. i hit a bucket of balls with the thing and it was the real deal.

now according to the second swing article on here, stiff in an rbz driver is actually stiff/xstiff. i'm barely in stiff territory by the chart, but i wouldn't go back to regular or regular/stiff even if it gave me an extra 10 yards because as long as my setup and swing are where they're supposed to be this driver does exactly what it's supposed to do.

Nothing wrong with going with what works...

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by daSeth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyder

I understand that, which is why I said Jimbo should be S at the least and most likely an XS based off of general knowledge.

Another poster then tried to generalize that "Most" golfers would benefit from a stiffer shaft, as opposed to a more flexible shaft. I offered insight as to why I believe otherwise.

I tend to agree...

So what is the general guidline for a switch from X to XS?  I have asked this question before on another thread and really didn't get a good answer.  For me, I am guessing I swing ~105.  I was playing S and really aprehensive on going to XS.  Looking back on it, for me it was a great move.  I hit the ball much straighter.  I don't feel as though I hit as many bombs.  However on average, I think I am actually longer because I am hitting the ball a lot straighter and a lot lower.  Even the mis-hits are going 250-260 in the fairway, or at least in play.  I used to be in the trouble off the tee 2-3 times per round.  Now, it's once every 2 or 3 rounds.  Granted, some of that is improvement in skill (not attributable to the shaft)...

IMO, Jimbo is an XS all the way due to the 115+ mph.  I don't think there is any question about it.  Here is some data from GolfSmith's website (http://www.golfsmith.com/display?page=learn_how5):

Shaft Flex

Driver

Swing Speed (mph)

Driver

Carry Distance (yards)

Club from 150 yards

Extra-Stiff

105 +

260 +

8 or 9-iron

Stiff

90-105

240-260

6 or 7-iron

Regular

80-95

210-240

5 or 6-iron

Flexible (A-Flex)

70-85

180-210

4-iron

Ladies

Less than 70

Less than 180

3-iron/lofted wood

FOOTER

But very few players are Jimbo.  I would love to hear what the guys with higher swing speeds think...  What is the breaking point for S and XS?

Are you just talking about drivers or all clubs?  I prefer an X shaft in a driver when using irons with DGS300. S shaft in 3-wood, and the stiff steel shaft I put in my Callaway 2-hybrid is money - maybe a club shorter than the original stock "S" graphite shaft but my "shot cone" with that club is very narrow now. With graphite it resembled a half circle. On our par-5 18th hole, there's a lot of junk in play off the tee. You have to carry  ~275 to comfortably clear the bunker on the right. I carry it more often than not and when I don't, I tend to have hit enough of a push or pull that the bunker is basically never in play. For posterity, my 150 club is typically a 9-iron (PW-8 depending on the weather and the shot at hand).