Lifting the Flagstick

[pgawest]

My friend and I were playing a casual round yesterday. I was off the green and my friend was standing close to the flagstick. "Do you want it in or out?" she asked. "Leave it in," I said. I putted from the fringe and it was obvious my ball was going in the hole. As the ball neared the hole, she lifted the pin.

Any penalty?

Thanks.

[trackster]

Originally Posted by pgawest

My friend and I were playing a casual round yesterday. I was off the green and my friend was standing close to the flagstick. "Do you want it in or out?" she asked. "Leave it in," I said. I putted from the fringe and it was obvious my ball was going in the hole. As the ball neared the hole, she lifted the pin.

Any penalty?

Thanks.

Uhh no?  If she would have left it in and your ball hit the flag stick it would have been a 2 stroke penalty.  It was handled correctly

[Crockme]

Since you were not on the green there obviously would be no 2 stroke penalty if you hit the pin, but regarding your question I doubt there would be a penalty to your friend unless they hit your ball while pulling out the pin.  I look forward to hearing a confirmation from someone more knowledgeable on this.

[Motley01]

No she was putting from the fringe, so there is no penalty weather the flagstick is in or not.

You're fine with her pulling it. No penalty. Even if she left it in and hit the flagstick, no penalty.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by trackster

Uhh no?  If she would have left it in and your ball hit the flag stick it would have been a 2 stroke penalty.  It was handled correctly

Wrong.

Originally Posted by Motley01

No she was putting from the fringe, so there is no penalty weather the flagstick is in or not.

You're fine with her pulling it. No penalty. Even if she left it in and hit the flagstick, no penalty.

Right.

You said to leave it in, so she should have but there isn't a penalty because she pulled it. The only time a penalty would be incurred is if the ball hit the flagstick and you were playing from the green (which you weren't as you were on the fringe).

[luu5]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

You said to leave it in, so she should have but there isn't a penalty because she pulled it. The only time a penalty would be incurred is if the ball hit the flagstick and you were playing from the green (which you weren't as you were on the fringe).

Penalty is very well possible. To the person who lifted the flag.

Rule 17-2 Unauthorised Attendance

If an opponent or his caddie in match play or a fellow-competitor or his caddie in stroke play, without the player’s authority or prior knowledge, attends, removes or holds up the flagstick during the stroke or while the ball is in motion, and the act might influence the movement of the ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor incurs the applicable penalty.

[Dormie1360]

It's a penalty under R17-2.

17-2/2

Flagstick Attended by Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Without Authority While Player's Ball in Motion

Q. A player plays from just off the putting green with the flagstick in the hole. While the ball is in motion and still 20 yards from the hole, an opponent or fellow-competitor, without the authority of the player, removes the flagstick as he mistakenly believes that the player will be penalized if his ball strikes the flagstick in the hole. The ball comes to rest five yards short of the hole. What is the ruling?

A. Under Rule 17-2 , the opponent or fellow-competitor is penalized if the removal of the flagstick might have influenced the movement of the ball. The determination as to whether there is a reasonable possibility that the removal of the flagstick might have influenced the movement of the ball is made by reference to the situation at the time the flagstick was removed.

In this case, since the flagstick was removed before it was possible to know what the result of the stroke might be, and since the intention of the player making the stroke was to get the ball as close to the hole as possible, at the moment the flagstick was removed it was reasonably possible that its removal might have influenced the movement of the ball. Therefore, the opponent loses the hole in match play or the fellow-competitor incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play for a breach of Rule 17-2 .

If a flagstick is removed, attended, or held up without authority by an opponent or fellow-competitor while a ball is in motion, but at the time of the action it is not reasonably possible that the ball will reach the hole or, having gone past the hole, will return to the hole (e.g., as a result of the slope of the putting green, wind, etc.), there is no breach of Rule 17-2 . (Revised)

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by pgawest

My friend and I were playing a casual round yesterday. I was off the green and my friend was standing close to the flagstick. "Do you want it in or out?" she asked. "Leave it in," I said. I putted from the fringe and it was obvious my ball was going in the hole. As the ball neared the hole, she lifted the pin.

Any penalty?

Thanks.

Dormie has it right.  Your friend incurred a 2 stroke penalty.

[trackster]

I thought if you hit an attended flag stick it is a 2 stroke penalty?

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by trackster

I thought if you hit an attended flag stick it is a 2 stroke penalty?

That would be the case if the flag were attended with the player's knowledge or authority.  In the OP's situation she asked the player specifically to not attend the flag.

[KevCarter]

Actually, the player asked the fellow competitor to leave the flag in. Did she ask her not to attend the flag? Please see Note 1. What is the definition of attending the flag? In my opinion, the player should have asked the fellow competitor to step away from the flag. My ruling would be no penalty.

Rule 17

The Flagstick

Definitions

All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.

17-1 . Flagstick Attended, Removed Or Held Up

Before making a stroke from anywhere on the course , the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate the position of the hole .

If the flagstick is not attended, removed or held up before the player makes a stroke , it must not be attended, removed or held up during the stroke or while the player’s ball is in motion if doing so might influence the movement of the ball.

Note 1: If the flagstick is in the hole and anyone stands near it while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick .

Note 2: If, prior to the stroke , the flagstick is attended, removed or held up by anyone with the player’s knowledge and he makes no objection, the player is deemed to have authorized it.

Note 3: If anyone attends or holds up the flagstick while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick until the ball comes to rest.

(Moving attended, removed or held-up flagstick while ball in motion – see Rule 24-1 )

17-2 . Unauthorized Attendance

If an opponent or his caddie in match play or a fellow-competitor or his caddie in stroke play, without the player’s authority or prior knowledge, attends, removes or holds up the flagstick during the stroke or while the ball is in motion, and the act might influence the movement of the ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor incurs the applicable penalty.

*PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 17-1 Or 17-2 :

Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

*In stroke play, if a breach of Rule 17-2 occurs and the competitor’s ball subsequently strikes the flagstick , the person attending or holding it or anything carried by him, the competitor incurs no penalty. The ball is played as it lies, except that if the stroke was made on the putting green, the stroke is canceled and the ball must be replaced and replayed.

17-3 . Ball Striking Flagstick Or Attendant

The player’s ball must not strike:

a. The flagstick when it is attended, removed or held up;

b. The person attending or holding up the flagstick or anything carried by him; or

c. The flagstick in the hole , unattended, when the stroke has been made on the putting green .

Exception: When the flagstick is attended, removed or held up without the player’s authority – see Rule 17-2 .

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 17-3 :

Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes and the ball must be played as it lies.

17-4 . Ball Resting Against Flagstick

When a player’s ball rests against the flagstick in the hole and the ball is not holed , the player or another person authorized by him may move or remove the flagstick , and if the ball falls into the hole , the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke ; otherwise, the ball, if moved , must be placed on the lip of the hole , without penalty.

[Dormie1360]

Hi Keven

I see what your saying....to me "Leave it in" sounded like don't attend it.  I guess we would need a clarification from the OP.

On another note, if you tell someone to not attend the flag and they still stand by it, you're saying Note 1 still applies?  Never really thought about that.  If that's the case I agree it would be the player's responsibility to make sure the other player moved away from the flag.

[KevCarter]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Hi Keven

I see what your saying....to me "Leave it in" sounded like don't attend it.  I guess we would need a clarification from the OP.

On another note, if you tell someone to not attend the flag and they still stand by it, you're saying Note 1 still applies?  Never really thought about that.  If that's the case I agree it would be the player's responsibility to make sure the other player moved away from the flag.

Hi John, not positive I am correct, but that's my gut feeling. I think there is a reason for the definition. If one is standing next to the flag, the impulse to help the fellow competitor by getting the flag out of the way is too great to resist... :-)

Kevin

[pgawest]

(OP here). The responses have been interesting, thank you for taking the consideration. I was putting from OFF the green and I asked that the flagstick be left in. The removal of the pin in no way interfered with the ball's motion, the ball was rolling toward the hole and had a few inches to go but it was obvious it was going to go in, and LIKELY would have dropped even with the flagstick in place.

I know about the penalty for hitting the flagstick while putting on the green, but this is not the case.

Thank you again.

[Rulesman]

Whether or not it made any difference to the ball going into the hole makes no difference.

The operative words in the rule are 'might influence'.

But the movement of the ball hitting a flagstick is different to not hitting a flagstick even if only slightly.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by KevCarter

Actually, the player asked the fellow competitor to leave the flag in. Did she ask her not to attend the flag? Please see Note 1. What is the definition of attending the flag? In my opinion, the player should have asked the fellow competitor to step away from the flag. My ruling would be no penalty.

The poster instructed the FC to leave the flag in. The key words are 'without the player's authority .... removes..'

17-2 applies, the notes to 17-1 are irrelevant.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by pgawest

(OP here). The responses have been interesting, thank you for taking the consideration. I was putting from OFF the green and I asked that the flagstick be left in. The removal of the pin in no way interfered with the ball's motion, the ball was rolling toward the hole and had a few inches to go but it was obvious it was going to go in, and LIKELY would have dropped even with the flagstick in place.

If your ball had a chance of going in, removing the flag could have influenced the ball because it could have hit the flagstick and removing the flagstick changed that.

If you say "leave it in" and then pull your putt five feet left of the flag she could take the flag out without penalty because it's not going to influence the putt and it's obvious. She's just pulling it out so she can prepare to putt (or whatever).

If I ask, and someone says "leave it in" to me, I might stand near the hole (in really casual rounds only - if it's anything more I just get out of their sight lines so as to observe proper etiquette), I'll leave it in if their ball is near the hole, and I'll sometimes pull it out if it's obvious their ball isn't going to be close to speed things up.

[Fourputt]

This is a personal opinion based on my experience with the rules, but when you tell a person the "leave the pin in", you have NOT authorized attendance, regardless of where the person is standing.  A person standing near the flagstick is deemed to be attending it only if there has been no other action or instruction to the contrary.

The proximity clause is a bit vague, but if I'm putting and you are standing 4 feet from the hole, you are deemed to be attending the flagstick with my authorization (assuming that you can touch the flagstick from 4 feet - most adults can).  In the same scenario, if I have instructed you to leave the flagstick in the hole, then I have specifically rescinded any possible deemed authorization despite your proximity to the hole, and removal at this point is potentially a penalty on you, dependent on the probability of the ball hitting said flagstick.  However, the proximity clause may refute my contention, since my request means that I'm clearly aware of your position near the hole, and I'm better off not putting until you move.

All that said, if I'm playing in a competition, I'm not playing my stroke until you move away from the hole.  If you don't do it on your own, I will ask you to do so.  If I'm standing near the hole and am instructed to leave the flagstick in, I will immediately move away from it, both to satisfy the rule and as a point of etiquette.