Penalty for 15th Club?

[MEfree]

I took my daughter to the driving range and forgot I left her right handed 9 iron in my bag.  Today, as I approached the 1st green, I noticed the club just under my front divider with my left handed wedges.  Am I subject to a penalty?

(FWIW, after noticing it, I left it in the bag, but mentally declared it out of play- not sure if you can still do it, but I recall turning clubs upside down in your bag years ago as a way to comply with the 14 club rule)

[newtogolf]

Were you playing in a tournament or just counting the round for handicap?

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I took my daughter to the driving range and forgot I left her right handed 9 iron in my bag.  Today, as I approached the 1st green, I noticed the club just under my front divider with my left handed wedges.  Am I subject to a penalty?

(FWIW, after noticing it, I left it in the bag, but mentally declared it out of play- not sure if you can still do it, but I recall turning clubs upside down in your bag years ago as a way to comply with the 14 club rule)

It's a breach of Rule 4-4.  Two stroke penalty applied added to the first hole.  The fact that it was a left handed club has no effect on the ruling.  As far as what to do after the breach is discovered, you just need to declare it out of play at that time and not use it for the remainder of the round.  Doesn't matter if you keep it in the bag or which end is up.

What you can not do is declare an extra club out of play before the round has started.  If you find a 15th club in your bag before the start of the round, turning it upside down, or laying in in the floor of the cart does not absolve you from the penalty of having too many clubs.  You need to leave the extra club in your locker, car, with the starter, etc.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

I took my daughter to the driving range and forgot I left her right handed 9 iron in my bag.  Today, as I approached the 1st green, I noticed the club just under my front divider with my left handed wedges.  Am I subject to a penalty?

(FWIW, after noticing it, I left it in the bag, but mentally declared it out of play- not sure if you can still do it, but I recall turning clubs upside down in your bag years ago as a way to comply with the 14 club rule)

It's a breach of Rule 4-4.  Two stroke penalty applied added to the first hole.  The fact that it was a left handed club has no effect on the ruling.  As far as what to do after the breach is discovered, you just need to declare it out of play at that time and not use it for the remainder of the round.  Doesn't matter if you keep it in the bag or which end is up.

What you can not do is declare an extra club out of play before the round has started.  If you find a 15th club in your bag before the start of the round, turning it upside down, or laying in in the floor of the cart does not absolve you from the penalty of having too many clubs.  You need to leave the extra club in your locker, car, with the starter, etc.

That right there is my nominee for the stupidest rule of all time.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

That right there is my nominee for the stupidest rule of all time.

HI Sean,

Yeah, might seem a little goofy.  The rule says you can not START the round with more than 14 clubs.  The term start means just that.  If it's with you, you're starting with it. Penalty.

If a club is discovered after the START of play, you have a penalty.  The rules aren't going to make you leave it in the bushes somewhere on the course.  You already have the penalty for starting with it so the rules just say you must acknowledge the breach and not use the club.

You might not think so, but there would be problems if your tried to write and enforce the 14 club rule differently.  The first problem is trying to re-engineer the term "start".  If, on the other hand,  you try to have a 14 club rule without the term "start" there are other problems as well.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Were you playing in a tournament or just counting the round for handicap?

the later, but I expect that had it been a tournament, I still wouldn`t have noticed it right away.  When I used to play tournys more often and rotated a few different clubs in and out of my set, I used to be in the habit of counting them before I teed off, but right now I only have 14 clubs that I am using.  Of course, now that I did this, I might be more careful going forward.

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

It's a breach of Rule 4-4.  Two stroke penalty applied added to the first hole.  The fact that it was a left handed club has no effect on the ruling.  As far as what to do after the breach is discovered, you just need to declare it out of play at that time and not use it for the remainder of the round.  Doesn't matter if you keep it in the bag or which end is up.

What you can not do is declare an extra club out of play before the round has started.  If you find a 15th club in your bag before the start of the round, turning it upside down, or laying in in the floor of the cart does not absolve you from the penalty of having too many clubs.  You need to leave the extra club in your locker, car, with the starter, etc.

Thanks for the reply, but I don`t understand why I would have been penalized if I had notice on the first tee, before teeing off, that I had an extra club and taken it out of my bag and put it in the cart.  The first tee is up a hill and across a road so it would have been a pain to go back to my car.

[Dormie1360]

I feel your pain, see the first paragraph in my reply to Sean. The rule says you can not START with more than 14 clubs.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

That right there is my nominee for the stupidest rule of all time.

Why?  The assumption is that if you discover it before you begin play, you have the opportunity to dispose of it properly.  What would be stupid in my opinion is to allow a player to carry 15 or more clubs whenever he wanted just by "declaring" them out of play.  The opportunities for abuse just boggle the mind.  Despite the fact that the rules presuppose that all golfers are honorable, we all know that is not the truth.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by MEfree

the later, but I expect that had it been a tournament, I still wouldn`t have noticed it right away.  When I used to play tournys more often and rotated a few different clubs in and out of my set, I used to be in the habit of counting them before I teed off, but right now I only have 14 clubs that I am using.  Of course, now that I did this, I might be more careful going forward.

Thanks for the reply, but I don`t understand why I would have been penalized if I had notice on the first tee, before teeing off, that I had an extra club and taken it out of my bag and put it in the cart.  The first tee is up a hill and across a road so it would have been a pain to go back to my car.

You could also take the easy way out and stick the extra club in your fellow competitor's bag and then nail HIM for the penalty!?!

Just kidding.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by turtleback

You could also take the easy way out and stick the extra club in your fellow competitor's bag and then nail HIM for the penalty!?!

Or you could just snap the club in half, and then it's not a club, it's just garbage, and you don't have to declare it out of play or be penalized for it.

Also just kidding. :)

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

That right there is my nominee for the stupidest rule of all time.

Why?  The assumption is that if you discover it before you begin play, you have the opportunity to dispose of it properly.  What would be stupid in my opinion is to allow a player to carry 15 or more clubs whenever he wanted just by "declaring" them out of play.  The opportunities for abuse just boggle the mind.  Despite the fact that the rules presuppose that all golfers are honorable, we all know that is not the truth.

It's my opinion. Nobody cares what you think about whether or not wer'e honourable. The act of "declaring" a club out of play happens after the penalty strokes are applied but if someone wanted to cheat they could still use that club when nobody was looking, because they still have it in their bag. Why would they do that? Exactly. A player who notices prior to teeing off they have an extra club, but is on foot 800 yards from their car should be able to declare one of them out of play (maybe apply some legal tape to the club head and have it notarized by a playing partner) and their promise to not use it during the round would have as much weight as the person who'd received penalty strokes.. I realize that is the rule. I'm not arguing to change it because I'm perfectly capable of counting to 14 before leaving my car, but nonetheless I find the fact you can't declare a club out of play in one instance but you can in another laughable.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

It's my opinion. Nobody cares what you think about whether or not wer'e honourable. The act of "declaring" a club out of play happens after the penalty strokes are applied but if someone wanted to cheat they could still use that club when nobody was looking, because they still have it in their bag. Why would they do that? Exactly. A player who notices prior to teeing off they have an extra club, but is on foot 800 yards from their car should be able to declare one of them out of play (maybe apply some legal tape to the club head and have it notarized by a playing partner) and their promise to not use it during the round would have as much weight as the person who'd received penalty strokes.. I realize that is the rule. I'm not arguing to change it because I'm perfectly capable of counting to 14 before leaving my car, but nonetheless I find the fact you can't declare a club out of play in one instance but you can in another laughable.

I would tend to agree with all of that. Especially logical is the bold part.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

I would tend to agree with all of that. Especially logical is the bold part.

Ask a rules guru about it and he'll tell you the same thing I posted above.  If the player is such a space case that he can't figure it out soon enough to properly dispose of it, the fault doesn't lie with the rule, it lies directly on the player.  In 40 years of playing I've never started a round with an extra club in my bag.   I've even spent time on the chipping green before play with a couple of extra wedges, but they are always back in my trunk before I head for the tee.  This just isn't one or the more complex rules in the book.  Pretty simple actually, and easy to follow.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Ask a rules guru about it and he'll tell you the same thing I posted above.  If the player is such a space case that he can't figure it out soon enough to properly dispose of it, the fault doesn't lie with the rule, it lies directly on the player.  In 40 years of playing I've never started a round with an extra club in my bag.   I've even spent time on the chipping green before play with a couple of extra wedges, but they are always back in my trunk before I head for the tee.  This just isn't one or the more complex rules in the book.  Pretty simple actually, and easy to follow.

I know what a rules official would say. I can read the rules too.

I've never started a round with an extra club either, but I agree with s_m that it's just weird that a player can declare a club out of play in one situation but not another. What's to stop the player who was penalized from using his declared club out of play on the 18th hole and hoping nobody notices? At least in the case of a player declaring a club out of play and putting a marker on it in some way he's being MORE honest than the guy who might just play 18 holes and hope nobody noticed he had 15 clubs.

I know it's simple and easy to follow. I think it's fine, too. I just think it's dumb that you can "declare" a club out of play in one situation but can in another. Quite seriously when the way to avoid being penalized is to snap a club over your knee and shove it in the bottom of your bag or risk losing it, well, the Rules don't match up with what's practical (jogging half a mile to your car and back? I don't think so) all the time.

In a tournament, fine, but we don't have separate rules for tournament golf and non-tournament golf, so Rules like this need to be followed even by people just playing with their buddies.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

I know what a rules official would say. I can read the rules too.

I've never started a round with an extra club either, but I agree with s_m that it's just weird that a player can declare a club out of play in one situation but not another. What's to stop the player who was penalized from using his declared club out of play on the 18th hole and hoping nobody notices? At least in the case of a player declaring a club out of play and putting a marker on it in some way he's being MORE honest than the guy who might just play 18 holes and hope nobody noticed he had 15 clubs.

I know it's simple and easy to follow. I think it's fine, too. I just think it's dumb that you can "declare" a club out of play in one situation but can in another. Quite seriously when the way to avoid being penalized is to snap a club over your knee and shove it in the bottom of your bag or risk losing it, well, the Rules don't match up with what's practical (jogging half a mile to your car and back? I don't think so) all the time.

In a tournament, fine, but we don't have separate rules for tournament golf and non-tournament golf, so Rules like this need to be followed even by people just playing with their buddies.

The difference is that even if he he is sufficiently unscrupulous as to use the extra club and gets away with it, he's already been penalized at least 2 strokes (possibly 4, depending on when the breach was discovered), and if he's caught using it he's disqualified.   He's already lost more strokes than he is likely to gain by using it, and if he does use it he runs the risk of being busted right out of the competition.  A player can often overcome a 2 stroke penalty - he can't overcome a DQ.

Although I'm not privy to the decision making process of the joint rules committee, they must have a compelling reason for keeping the rule as it is.  That seems apparent in the wording of Decision 4-4a/6, since the decision was revised for 2012, but nothing changed in the rule itself.  They apparently feel that Rule 4-4a should be enforced in the same basic way as it always has been.  They made some very specific exceptions to the penalty, but did nothing to change the rule.  I can only assume that the rule is written as it is to strongly encourage the player to make every effort to arrive at the tee with the correct number of clubs.  Apparently the committee considers this rule to be important to the integrity of the game.

[reedf]

Originally Posted by iacas

I know what a rules official would say. I can read the rules too.

I've never started a round with an extra club either, but I agree with s_m that it's just weird that a player can declare a club out of play in one situation but not another. What's to stop the player who was penalized from using his declared club out of play on the 18th hole and hoping nobody notices? At least in the case of a player declaring a club out of play and putting a marker on it in some way he's being MORE honest than the guy who might just play 18 holes and hope nobody noticed he had 15 clubs.

I know it's simple and easy to follow. I think it's fine, too. I just think it's dumb that you can "declare" a club out of play in one situation but can in another. Quite seriously when the way to avoid being penalized is to snap a club over your knee and shove it in the bottom of your bag or risk losing it, well, the Rules don't match up with what's practical (jogging half a mile to your car and back? I don't think so) all the time.

In a tournament, fine, but we don't have separate rules for tournament golf and non-tournament golf, so Rules like this need to be followed even by people just playing with their buddies.

I agree completely with you! I believe the rule is a good one though, just that one part of it isn't always practical as you said. Especially in this specific case where it was the OP's daughter that inadvertantly put the club in the bag. In a competitive round I would suspect the OP would have double checked and found the club and properly removed it, but in a casual/practice round it could just happen. Personally, I would not have penalized myself at all for this due to the specific nature. If it had been one of my own clubs left in the bag, I would have. Before I get blasted for that, I do believe that the rules should be followed to the letter when you are playing, but I also believe this is a rare instance with no intent on the OP's part, and that a little common sense should prevail. And as iacas pointed out, in a tournament I would have a different opinion.

[newtogolf]

I don't know about you guys but I prep my bag every round I play if it's not at my home club.  If I'm playing at another course I will usually swap a club or two based on the course I'm playing.  My bag only has 14 slots, so there's no way I could have 15 clubs in it without it being obvious.

That said, I agree with Erik and Sean that it's a bit much to expect someone to run 1/2 mile back to their car to put a club away or take a 2 stroke penalty when they could just mark the club out of play or place it in the cart before the round starts.  Based on my understanding of the rules, I can carry non-conforming golf balls in my bag and would only suffer the penalty of DQ if I put them in play, I would think the 15th club could be handled in a similar manner.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The difference is that even if he he is sufficiently unscrupulous as to use the extra club and gets away with it, he's already been penalized at least 2 strokes (possibly 4, depending on when the breach was discovered), and if he's caught using it he's disqualified.   He's already lost more strokes than he is likely to gain by using it, and if he does use it he runs the risk of being busted right out of the competition.  A player can often overcome a 2 stroke penalty - he can't overcome a DQ.

That's beside the point, which is simply this: a player gets to declare a club as out of play in one situation but not another. Why not let a player declare a club as out of play and if caught using it, be penalized with a DQ?

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Although I'm not privy to the decision making process of the joint rules committee, they must have a compelling reason for keeping the rule as it is.  That seems apparent in the wording of Decision 4-4a/6, since the decision was revised for 2012, but nothing changed in the rule itself.  They apparently feel that Rule 4-4a should be enforced in the same basic way as it always has been.  They made some very specific exceptions to the penalty, but did nothing to change the rule.  I can only assume that the rule is written as it is to strongly encourage the player to make every effort to arrive at the tee with the correct number of clubs.  Apparently the committee considers this rule to be important to the integrity of the game.

Probably. But that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be changed.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

That said, I agree with Erik and Sean that it's a bit much to expect someone to run 1/2 mile back to their car to put a club away or take a 2 stroke penalty when they could just mark the club out of play or place it in the cart before the round starts.  Based on my understanding of the rules, I can carry non-conforming golf balls in my bag and would only suffer the penalty of DQ if I put them in play, I would think the 15th club could be handled in a similar manner.

You can have unusual equipment in your bag too and only be penalized if you use it as well.