Golfer Attacked for Slow Play

[newtogolf]

If I was a single digit handicap player, playing with other single digit handicappers and we all hit good long drives and never had to look for a ball we could play in 3-3.5 hours.

I'm not a single digit handicapper, I don't typically play rounds with single digit handicappers.  I don't always hit the ball long or in the fairway, sometimes I even have to go look for a ball in the woods.  If the course requires I finish in 4 hours then I'm not going to intentionally rush my game, give up looking for a ball prematurely, or pick up unless I fall off the pace the course has set.  IMO golfers aren't obligated to play faster than the posted pace of the course, which is where I think we disagree.  They shouldn't needlessly waste time, but they shouldn't have to rush either.

You seem like a good guy, just might have a busier life and not as much time to dedicate to golf as some of us.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Interesting, that part you bolded: If the lead group can finish in 3 hours, theoretically then why couldn't every one else?

And before I somehow get blamed for doing such things, for the record I do not engage in nor condone pushing people or hitting into them. I'm really a much nicer guy than I appear on the internet.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

...IMO golfers aren't obligated to play faster than the posted pace of the course, which is where I think we disagree.  They shouldn't needlessly waste time, but they shouldn't have to rush either.

We really don't disagree on that at all. Golfers are not "obligated" to play faster than the posted pace. Where I disagree with most others apparently though is that I think many *could* play faster, without rushing, and that if they did the current norm for a round of golf would be shorter. That's all.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

You seem like a good guy, just might have a busier life and not as much time to dedicate to golf as some of us.

Ha, thanks for that - never too busy to get into internet arguments though.

[ghalfaire]

Originally Posted by madcityscott

Something tells me he wasn't having the best round:

Galt vice principal allegedly attacks man with golf club

By David Ruiz

druiz@sacbee.com

Published: Friday, Jul. 20, 2012 - 12:00 am | Page 2B

Galt High School vice principal Robert E. Rappleye Jr., 61, was arrested on suspicion of assault with a deadly weapon July 13, Angels Camp police officials said.

The vice principal's alleged weapon of choice? A golf club.

Rappleye, an Elk Grove resident, and others went golfing that day at the Greenhorn Creek Golf Resort in Angels Camp. Rappleye became frustrated at the slow pace of a group of golfers playing ahead on the 18th hole, according to a police news release.

A husband and wife in the group ahead approached Rappleye to talk about the problem. Witnesses say the husband became angry when Rappleye used foul language directed to the husband's wife, according to the release.

The argument turned violent when Rappleye swung one of his golf clubs at the husband, the news release said.

The husband tried to block the swing with his left arm, injuring him.

Rappleye swung a second time with the husband turning his back to defend himself. Rappleye struck the husband's left shoulder blade, the news release said.

Audrey Kilpatrick, chief business official for Galt Joint Union High School District, said the district has cooperated with the police investigation. She would not say whether Rappleye is on leave, but she confirmed he is currently considered an employee for the district.

Officer Chris Johnson of Angels Camp Police Department arrived at the golf course to find the two men still arguing. The victim was bleeding when Johnson arrived, the news release said. The victim pointed out Rappleye as the man responsible for his injuries.

Rappleye admitted the attack, the news release said.

Rappleye was arrested on scene and taken to the Calaveras County jail.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/07/20/4643738/galt-vice-principal-allegedly.html#storylink=cpy

just stupid,  you'd think grownups would behave and know better.

[NM Golf]

Originally Posted by teamroper60

Statistically speaking, the average time for an 18 hole round of golf is 4-4.5 hours.   As long as the round is completed within that time frame, nobody has a right to complain about the pace of play.

Anyone who expects others to play at a faster than the average pace, simply because they don't have 4.5 hours to spend, is just as rude as people who play slower than average.   If someone doesn't have 4.5 hours to spend on the golf course, perhaps they should either play 9 (if that is an option) or wait until a day when they do.

Originally Posted by teamroper60

I understand the concept that golf could be played faster than 4-4.5.   What I am saying (and apparently you and others are not getting) is, that asking others to conform to what your (and I mean that generically, not specifically you)  pace of play is, is just as rude as what slow players are been accused of being...

Rocket Man says he can play 18 in 2-2.5 hours.   I can (and do) play 18 in under 2, so compared to me, he is slow.   Yet, if I came up behind him, I would not get bent out of shape about it.   It is what it is.    If I don't have the time to play at what is considered a normal pace (or in that case, the pace he is playing), I need to adjust how many holes I am playing, not expect him to speed up to MY pace of play...

And regardless of what you may think, courses set tee times based on what the norms are.   Just because those norms don't fit your (or my) criteria, doesn't mean they are wrong.    Your failure to see that is indicative of someone who doesn't understand the concept that the world does not revolve around any one person's time table.  If that time table is slower than yours (or mine or anyone else in particular), tough.  You (or I or whomever) need to make the adjustment, not the other way around.

We have a group like this at my course. You should see everyone scramble to get tee times before them every Saturday because if you are behind them its gonna be 4.5 hours or maybe a tad more regardless of where the group in front of them is. And of course they want to play early in the morning. But mention the fact that they are behind or too slow and this jackass will go into a tirade about how they will finish within the guidelines the course has set.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dak4n6

So bad golfers are not allowed to keep score and finish out their holes?

Not if they are taking too long. When I was learning the game I would hit shots until I began to slow the group down then I picked up. It is absolutely ridiculous to see some idiot plumb bobbing a putt for a 9 because he wants a "real score".

[Goonsidious]

If you aren't on or right next to the green by bogey.. hole should be done.

[mellison24]

I was witness to an incident which confused me a little. Not quite to do with slow play, but apparently FAST play.

On the 18th at my local club, the junior team were playing another local club and the match behind them was a group of guys playing casually. One of the juniors went up to his ball (a perfect lie in a very good position) and proceeded to lift the ball, tee it and smash it with his driver all the way back to the tee bay and legged it over there with a sand wedge to beat the guy senseless. His excuse for knocking one of the guys unconscious and bloody?

'They keep playing too fast and it's disturbing us!'

Well fair enough laddie, but don't think for one second that gives you the right to attack them in ANY way! Rest assured the police were called, who did sod all about it, such is the state of Britain these days. You can get away with what you want, it would seem.

[Goonsidious]

That's disgusting and disturbing. Also.. the fact that the casual guy's friends didn't help him out.. is a shame.

Uncalled for while on the course.. and in general.

[celticstanger]

I've had some nightmarish rounds of late, hooking the ball into he Arizona desert, leading to many "provisionals" and treks to track down my errant shots.  Compound this with 1 regular partner who shoots mid/high-90's (but a quick player, admittedly) and another who typically shoots high-90's to low-100's AND is PONDEROUSLY slow (oh yes, read that triple-bogey putt from both sides of the hole!!!).  We never take longer than 4.5 hours.  Slowy McSlowpants' bad behavior is offset by the fact that both myself and the other regular of the group almost always know which club we're hitting as we walk up on our balls, but on a bad day, we three (plus 1 other) can all shoot > bogey golf and STILL not threaten 4.5.

Bottom line is, bad golf doesn't have to mean slow golf.  Personally, I'm fine with 4 hours.  I'm not mad on getting up to 4.5 hours, but it doesn't really ruin my day, either.  Once you start getting farther from 4.5 and closer to 5 hours, that's when I start to get twitchy.  Sometimes I've got all day to play, sometimes I don't.  It doesn't matter, though - standing around on teeboxes or in fairways for 15-20 minutes just bores the sht out of me.  Yeah, I've got good company, yeah I'm outdoors, but I can enjoy both elsewhere.  On the course, I'm there to golf, so please let me play in no more than 4.75.

That said, I've never, or would ever, hit into someone deliberately over slow play.  Hitting something with a rapidly moving lump of solid rubber, over something so trivial, just gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Just to counter some of the negativity on the thread - for two weeks running now, I've run into slow groups (fallen out of position) and even though I didn't make loud noises of impatience, nor adopt a pouty "COME ON!" stance for them to see, they immediately waved me through.  One time I played as a single, the other in a threesome.

[teamroper60]

Originally Posted by NM Golf

Here is my problem with your thinking. I see it all the time, people are holding up the whole course behind them, but because they are on a 4.5 hour pace they don't think they are doing anything wrong. The group in front of them is on a 3.5 hour pace and the 5 groups behind them want to be on a 3.5 hour pace but because they don't consider themselves slow due to some ridiculous "norm" they continue to slow everyone down. Most of these people won't even let anyone through.

Here is my problem with your line of thinking..     As long as that group is meeting the course expectation, just because you would like to play faster does not make your wishes right and those of others wrong.   Calling these people out simply because they are not playing as fast as you would like, is wrong.

I see the term etiquette thrown around a lot in regard to these types of threads..    Etiquette is defined as a is a code of behavior that delineates expectations.   If the course has set  a pace at 4-4.5 hours and the group is on that pace, then the group is meeting the expectation and thus, they are following proper etiquette (regardless of what pace anyone else on the course might wish to play).  As such, they are not and should not be, under obligation to change simply because someone else wants them to.    Now, should they fall behind the course's expectation, then that is another matter altogether and they deserve to be chastised for being slow.   But until they do, they are not violating any rules or codes of conduct.

This "me first" type of behavior is indicative of one of the problems in our society.   I hear people proclaim that something is "not fair" when in reality, what they really mean is, it is not advantageous to them.    Everyone needs to accept the fact that no other person should be required to conform to another's individual mandates if those mandates are more restrictive than what is considered the norm.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by teamroper60

Quote:

Originally Posted by NM Golf

Here is my problem with your thinking. I see it all the time, people are holding up the whole course behind them, but because they are on a 4.5 hour pace they don't think they are doing anything wrong. The group in front of them is on a 3.5 hour pace and the 5 groups behind them want to be on a 3.5 hour pace but because they don't consider themselves slow due to some ridiculous "norm" they continue to slow everyone down. Most of these people won't even let anyone through.

Here is my problem with your line of thinking..     As long as that group is meeting the course expectation, just because you would like to play faster does not make your wishes right and those of others wrong.   Calling these people out simply because they are not playing as fast as you would like, is wrong.

I see the term etiquette thrown around a lot in regard to these types of threads..    Etiquette is defined as a is a code of behavior that delineates expectations.   If the course has set  a pace at 4-4.5 hours and the group is on that pace, then the group is meeting the expectation and thus, they are following proper etiquette (regardless of what pace anyone else on the course might wish to play).  As such, they are not and should not be, under obligation to change simply because someone else wants them to.    Now, should they fall behind the course's expectation, then that is another matter altogether and they deserve to be chastised for being slow.   But until they do, they are not violating any rules or codes of conduct.

This "me first" type of behavior is indicative of one of the problems in our society.   I hear people proclaim that something is "not fair" when in reality, what they really mean is, it is not advantageous to them.    Everyone needs to accept the fact that no other person should be required to conform to another's individual mandates if those mandates are more restrictive than what is considered the norm.

You keep defending your position by citing the "norm", without considering the possibility that the norm is what it is only because of the "me first" type of behavior that causes 4.5 hour rounds when they could be 3.5.  Can you at least acknowledge that possibility?

[teamroper60]

Originally Posted by mellison24

I was witness to an incident which confused me a little. Not quite to do with slow play, but apparently FAST play.

On the 18th at my local club, the junior team were playing another local club and the match behind them was a group of guys playing casually. One of the juniors went up to his ball (a perfect lie in a very good position) and proceeded to lift the ball, tee it and smash it with his driver all the way back to the tee bay and legged it over there with a sand wedge to beat the guy senseless. His excuse for knocking one of the guys unconscious and bloody?

'They keep playing too fast and it's disturbing us!'

Well fair enough laddie, but don't think for one second that gives you the right to attack them in ANY way! Rest assured the police were called, who did sod all about it, such is the state of Britain these days. You can get away with what you want, it would seem.

So much for the concept that golf is better in Great Britain............................

Honestly, IMHO the guy that hit the ball back at somebody else deserved a good ol' fashioned azz whoopin!

[teamroper60]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

You keep defending your position by citing the "norm", without considering the possibility that the norm is what it is only because of the "me first" type of behavior that causes 4.5 hour rounds when they could be 3.5.  Can you at least acknowledge that possibility?

Sure.  Easily.   If the norm was 3.5, then so be it.   I don't personally care what the norm is.  As I said before, I can play 18 in under 2 hours.   My point is that as long as people are playing to what courses set (and they set them to the norm), expecting others to play at less is unreasonable.

But you also need to acknowledge that regardless of what the norm could be,  it is not currently 3.5 hours. Expecting anyone to play faster (and especially berating them for it) is therefore,unreasonable.

BTW, you mentioned Great Britain as your example of what the proper pace is..  The R&A; says that pace is 3 hours, 50 minutes.   Not 3 hours, 30 minutes.   Should that pace be the norm here?   Possibly.   But it isn't.  Could it be?  Perhaps.   But again, it is not.   I use the term "norms"  because it is defined as conforming to the standard or common type.  Whether those norms could be different or not is a whole other issue.

[newtogolf]

If someone is keeping up with the group in front of them and maintaining the set  pace for the course why should they pick up?  Speed golfers are just as inconsiderate as the slow players who don't maintain the required pace of the course.  Both groups think they are special and believe everyone else should be put out to accommodate them.

I see it all the time on the highway, traffic is bumper to bumper and some idiot, who believes he's entitled to go faster than the rest of us, is behind me flashing his brights because he expects me to risk an accident and move over when in fact I'm 6 feet away from the car in front of me.   If I'm driving 65 in the left lane and traffic is wide open I'll happily move over for someone, but in traffic, it's not happening unless you're a police officer or emergency vehicle.

Same rules apply on the course, if my group is at the proper pace and where we belong with relation to the group in front of us, then sorry you're not playing through.  If you're schedule won't allow you to dedicate the 4-4.5 hours to your round, then you should pick up and skip some holes until you find an opening.

Originally Posted by NM Golf

Here is my problem with your thinking. I see it all the time, people are holding up the whole course behind them, but because they are on a 4.5 hour pace they don't think they are doing anything wrong. The group in front of them is on a 3.5 hour pace and the 5 groups behind them want to be on a 3.5 hour pace but because they don't consider themselves slow due to some ridiculous "norm" they continue to slow everyone down. Most of these people won't even let anyone through.

We have a group like this at my course. You should see everyone scramble to get tee times before them every Saturday because if you are behind them its gonna be 4.5 hours or maybe a tad more regardless of where the group in front of them is. And of course they want to play early in the morning. But mention the fact that they are behind or too slow and this jackass will go into a tirade about how they will finish within the guidelines the course has set.

Not if they are taking too long. When I was learning the game I would hit shots until I began to slow the group down then I picked up. It is absolutely ridiculous to see some idiot plumb bobbing a putt for a 9 because he wants a "real score".

[teamroper60]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

If someone is keeping up with the group in front of them and maintaining the set  pace for the course why should they pick up?  Speed golfers are just as inconsiderate as the slow players who don't maintain the required pace of the course.  Both groups think they are special and believe everyone else should be put out to accommodate them.

My point exactly...........

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by teamroper60

Quote:

Originally Posted by mellison24

I was witness to an incident which confused me a little. Not quite to do with slow play, but apparently FAST play.

On the 18th at my local club, the junior team were playing another local club and the match behind them was a group of guys playing casually. One of the juniors went up to his ball (a perfect lie in a very good position) and proceeded to lift the ball, tee it and smash it with his driver all the way back to the tee bay and legged it over there with a sand wedge to beat the guy senseless. His excuse for knocking one of the guys unconscious and bloody?

'They keep playing too fast and it's disturbing us!'

Well fair enough laddie, but don't think for one second that gives you the right to attack them in ANY way! Rest assured the police were called, who did sod all about it, such is the state of Britain these days. You can get away with what you want, it would seem.

So much for the concept that golf is better in Great Britain............................

No one ever said better - I said faster.  Not that one data point is indicative of anything anyway.

Originally Posted by teamroper60

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

You keep defending your position by citing the "norm", without considering the possibility that the norm is what it is only because of the "me first" type of behavior that causes 4.5 hour rounds when they could be 3.5.  Can you at least acknowledge that possibility?

Sure.  Easily.   If the norm was 3.5, then so be it.   I don't personally care what the norm is.  As I said before, I can play 18 in under 2 hours.   My point is that as long as people are playing to what courses set (and they set them to the norm), expecting others to play at less is unreasonable.

But you also need to acknowledge that regardless of what the norm could be,  it is not currently 3.5 hours.  Expecting anyone to play faster (and especially berating them for it) is therefore,unreasonable.

Agreed, and like I said before, I'm not pushing anybody or berating anybody for playing at the pace the course has set. If you think that's what I've been on about, I really need to work on my communication skills.

Originally Posted by teamroper60

BTW, you mentioned Great Britain as your example of what the proper pace is..  The R&A; says that pace is 3 hours, 50 minutes.   Not 3 hours, 30 minutes.   Should that pace be the norm here?   Possibly.   But it isn't.  Could it be?  Perhaps.   But again, it is not.   I use the term "norms"  because it is defined as conforming to the standard or common type.  Whether those norms could be different or not is a whole other issue.

First. I never said that 3:30 was the R&A; guideline. I said it was the norm. (And btw, if I had a dime for every time I've had to say "I never said x" in this thread, I could buy a sleeve of Pro V1s.) Second, wow, I seriously had no idea R&A; even had a guideline, particularly that low - that's cool, kudos to them.  Third, the fact that such a low guideline exists over there is proof that people can enjoy the game at that pace.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

If someone is keeping up with the group in front of them and maintaining the set  pace for the course why should they pick up?

No one's said that either. The scenario being discussed was picking up when they're *not* maintaining the pace.

Originally Posted by teamroper60

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

If someone is keeping up with the group in front of them and maintaining the set  pace for the course why should they pick up?  Speed golfers are just as inconsiderate as the slow players who don't maintain the required pace of the course.  Both groups think they are special and believe everyone else should be put out to accommodate them.

My point exactly...........

We are in complete agreement on this. Speed golfers who push people keeping the pace are rude. And I never said (there it is again) anything to the contrary.

All I've ever said is that we don't have to settle for the norm just because it's the norm. It's the norm that the government wastes a lot of money, but I'm not ok with that. Similarly, I'm not ok with the norm for a round of golf being 4.5 hours. I think we could be doing better. It's only the norm because people are taking longer than they need to, and the pace guidelines in Great Britain are proof of that. That doesn't mean I'm going to hit into people who I think are taking longer than they need to. It just means that I'm not being a sheep and just blindly accepting of the norm as it stands today. It just means, I believe the norm could be less than 4.5 hours. Simple as that. That's the only point I have been trying to get across.

[teamroper60]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

All I've ever said is that we don't have to settle for the norm just because it's the norm. It's the norm that the government wastes a lot of money, but I'm not ok with that.

What the norm is or is not, is a whole other issue.  Just as the government's use of our money.   We can change how the government spends our money, through voting.  The same could be said for people choosing to play a course.  They could choose not to play courses where the pace is slower than they like and opt to play other courses instead.   They could also make it known that they are not playing certain courses because the pace is slower than they like.   But unless and until courses see enough of a drop in revenue to recognize it as a  problem, the norm is going to continue to be what it is.

Regarding the norm and settling for it...    "The norm" is a constantly changing thing.   Years ago, players wore ties and jackets on the course when they played.  That was the norm.   Should it still be that way?  Some might say yes, others would emphatically say no. (playing in the heat we have been experiencing here, I would say it was also unreasonable, but I digress) The fact is, "the norm" does not call for it and the likelihood that we will go back to that is probably less than nil (see the myriad of discussions on dress codes) .   The same can be applied here.  We can agree that the game can be played in less than 4 hours but the likelihood that courses will require it is also probably nil.  Therefore, we can choose to adapt or choose to not participate (bear in mind, I am not making a suggestion either way) .

Regarding the R&A;'s pace of play, I have never played overseas so I won't even guess whether their pace is reasonable over here or not but from what I have seen, the layout of golf courses governed by the R&A; is very different than that of golf courses in the U.S.   Even so, the  USGA has also established guidelines for pace of play.  They say that 3hrs, 58 minutes is considered on pace for 2 people over 18 holes and 4hrs, 35 minutes is on pace for 3 players.   Since the USGA says just over 4.5 hours is on pace for a 3some, it becomes virtually impossible to argue with any legitimacy that a 4some taking 4-4.5 hours for 18 holes is excessive.

Whether the USGA's numbers should be lower or not is certainly something that again, could be debated.  However, considering that those are the numbers provided by the governing body to courses around the country, it is not unreasonable to expect that when we tee off, it is going to take 4-4.5 hours to play 18 in the U.S.  So regardless of what we think a round should take, we must accept that it is a distinct possibility the round will take 4-4.5 hours and schedule accordingly.   If we do not have 4-4.5 hours available for a round, then rather than berating those whose pace meets the guidelines, we need to adjust either how much or how often we play.     Since money talks, doing so will tell courses around the country whether they need to adjust their expected pace or not.  In the mean time, everyone needs to chill out and accept that they are not likely to play 18 in 3hrs unless they have the course to themselves.

[newtogolf]

My post was directed at NM Golf, not you sacm3bill, sorry if there was confusion.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

.

We are in complete agreement on this. Speed golfers who push people keeping the pace are rude. And I never said (there it is again) anything to the contrary.

All I've ever said is that we don't have to settle for the norm just because it's the norm. It's the norm that the government wastes a lot of money, but I'm not ok with that. Similarly, I'm not ok with the norm for a round of golf being 4.5 hours. I think we could be doing better. It's only the norm because people are taking longer than they need to, and the pace guidelines in Great Britain are proof of that. That doesn't mean I'm going to hit into people who I think are taking longer than they need to. It just means that I'm not being a sheep and just blindly accepting of the norm as it stands today. It just means, I believe the norm could be less than 4.5 hours. Simple as that. That's the only point I have been trying to get across.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

You keep defending your position by citing the "norm", without considering the possibility that the norm is what it is only because of the "me first" type of behavior that causes 4.5 hour rounds when they could be 3.5.  Can you at least acknowledge that possibility?

The norm is what it is because it's most comfortable for the majority.  It's not because they are dawdling, it's because that is what is the most comfortable pace for the greatest number of players.  The 4 to 4½ hour pace we have been discussing works out to between 13.3 and 15 minutes per hole.  Can it be done faster?  Sure, but that isn't going to be a relaxing pace for most people.  It doesn't allow for any untoward issues cropping up.

I really can't remember the last time I played in a fourball where there weren't at least two or three ball searches.  I'm not talking about taking the allowed 5 minutes for each one, but even when taking 2 or 3 minutes for each can bump a 12.5 minute average to 13.5.  Just because you don't choose to do this, or maybe you never lose track of a ball, doesn't mean that others have to abandon every misplayed ball just so you can get your 3½ hour round.  Believe me, I understand the frustration of arriving at each tee while the group in front of you is out stomping the weeds looking for balls.  Some players do carry it to extremes, and those layers need to be educated, but as long as they don't lose the pace, or they make a point of regaining their position after a delay, they are still within their rights.  On a busy course, waving the group behind them through doesn't help the congestion, because there is always another one right on their heels.

The courses I play all have the note on the scorecard stating that "USGA Rules govern all play".  In part, that means that within reason, ball searches are allowed.  If it gets out of control, then it needs to be addressed, but until the group passes that invisible pace of play barrier, they have the right.  Any standard set for something like pace of play has to have some wiggle room built in to it.  You can't set a standard at the best pace or it will be unattainable in any but perfect conditions.  Different courses need to have different standards because different conditions apply.

I agree that people who just fiddle around and waste time need to get a clue, but those who are honestly just trying to play the game have the right to do so as long as they are within the course limits,