I've learned one thing -- golf is all about doing everything right, ALL the time!

[TXRains]

Originally Posted by divot dave

I'm new and not exactly a well spring of living water when it comes to golf knowledge... but my take on it is good golf boils down to realistic course management. By realistic I mean embracing an honest assessment of your capabilities and playing within those boundaries. When I first started some months ago, I was under a number of false impressions... namely you're "supposed" to hit the driver on anything par 4 or longer. approach shots should always be high loft pitches, putting should only be done from the green... every shot should be a full swing with the right selected club for the distance except for pitches/chips...and on...

As I have progressed, I've learned that not to be the case at all. Good golf is defined not merely by how well you can hit each club in your bag, but by your score at the end of the day. I'm not great at many of my irons right now. I dare not hit anything longer than my 7 iron with a full swing. But I am finding success in dropping my scores by playing to my strengths. I rarely pull out the driver, and save strokes using my 3 wood. For mid-range shots, I use my 4 hybrid a lot as I've found I'm fairly accurate with it. On short par 3's, I've learned I perform best by using a short tee and clubbing up so I can swing soft and not risk any erratic shots.  I no longer attempt high loft shots unless the scenario absolutely calls for it, i'm content to hit a 35 yard chip with a 9 iron if it means preserving accuracy. There are numerous more examples but you get the idea.

In the mean time I keep working on my weaknesses at the range or during practice rounds and build up confidence with a given issue until I can safely use it during the more competitive rounds.

so ultimately my 2 cents are that its not so much about being close to perfect all the time, but learning your limitations and playing soberly (not egotistically) within them, while working on your weaknesses on the side.

This was just really well said, and I couldn't agree more. Since I've come back to the game and brought a desire to set expectations with me (I've always played, but haven't always cared how I played) I've found that my best holes and rounds come when I don't try to do too much, but rather try and make shots that I know I can make.

Hit a drive through the fairway the other day, which put me about 30 yards behind a tree blocking my view to the green, with a tree line to the right. I could've tried to either go over the tree or by it/between the tree line, but odds are that wasn't going to work. The smart play (for me, not everyone I'm sure) was to just pitch out and into the middle of the fairway and give myself a nice third shot with a wedge in my hand. That's what I did, and the hole played well (Well, I double-bogeyed it, but that was because of the three-put, not the approach I took).

[LovinItAll]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Your comments on this topic, from this thread.

This is what I said:

" I'm not sure why many people think pulling an extra club = flying it over the green. By example:

Even if we know our exact distances with approach irons, we don't usually end up with the perfect number. Given an average of 10 yards between clubs (adjust based on your game), if the pin is in the middle on a 25 yard deep green, this is what we usually end up with:

130 in.
Let's say a golfer hits 8 135 and 9 125.
8 is almost always the club, not 'hard nine'. Perfect 8 leaves golfer 15' (5 yards) past the pin. Even to a back pin, it's not usually cut less than 5 paces.

130 in.
Golfer hits perfect 9 130, perfect 8 140.
Again, if golfer is a 10 or worse, he is hitting very few shots flush. If he pulls 8 and hits it 140, he's 30' past (available on most, not all, greens). Unless the pin is cut back, there is almost always 30' available past the pin. More likely, though, he pulls 8 and doesn't catch it perfectly, leaving himself hole high, a little short, or a little long. Hitting 9 less than flush, he's never going to be hole high unless the bad shot was a skuller. I'd rather be putting from 15' or less every time regardless of green speed/slope, but that's just me.

Re: advice from the book mentioned - it's great advice once a golfer starts hitting most shots the correct distance."

When I said, "If you think it's an 8i, pull 7i and try to hit it over the green.", it was with the above in mind, meaning the 'perfect 7i' isn't going to fly over the green anyway if the pin is middle/front.

With all that said, I'll finish with this:

You..are..absolutely..right. Golfers on this forum would be better off following your advice rather than mine. Consider my opinions to be in the minority with no legitimate basis in fact or reality - I'm just guessing. Your experiences are more valuable than mine, plus I'm not that smart anyway. I'm not a teaching or playing pro and have never held myself out to be either. Any comments I've made may or may not help others with their golf game.

You object to virtually everything I say, so does that make you feel better? My 'forum ego' is about a zero, anyway.

[divot dave]

Originally Posted by TXRains

This was just really well said, and I couldn't agree more. Since I've come back to the game and brought a desire to set expectations with me (I've always played, but haven't always cared how I played) I've found that my best holes and rounds come when I don't try to do too much, but rather try and make shots that I know I can make.

Hit a drive through the fairway the other day, which put me about 30 yards behind a tree blocking my view to the green, with a tree line to the right. I could've tried to either go over the tree or by it/between the tree line, but odds are that wasn't going to work. The smart play (for me, not everyone I'm sure) was to just pitch out and into the middle of the fairway and give myself a nice third shot with a wedge in my hand. That's what I did, and the hole played well (Well, I double-bogeyed it, but that was because of the three-put, not the approach I took).

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Your comments on this topic, from this thread.

This is what I said:

. . stuff from a different post that was not quoted . . .

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Your comments on this topic, from this thread.

This is what I said:

"I'm not sure why many people think pulling an extra club = flying it over the green. By example:

Even if we know our exact distances with approach irons, we don't usually end up with the perfect number. Given an average of 10 yards between clubs (adjust based on your game), if the pin is in the middle on a 25 yard deep green, this is what we usually end up with:

130 in.

Let's say a golfer hits 8 135 and 9 125.

8 is almost always the club, not 'hard nine'. Perfect 8 leaves golfer 15' (5 yards) past the pin. Even to a back pin, it's not usually cut less than 5 paces.

130 in.

Golfer hits perfect 9 130, perfect 8 140.

Again, if golfer is a 10 or worse, he is hitting very few shots flush. If he pulls 8 and hits it 140, he's 30' past (available on most, not all, greens). Unless the pin is cut back, there is almost always 30' available past the pin. More likely, though, he pulls 8 and doesn't catch it perfectly, leaving himself hole high, a little short, or a little long. Hitting 9 less than flush, he's never going to be hole high unless the bad shot was a skuller. I'd rather be putting from 15' or less every time regardless of green speed/slope, but that's just me.

Re: advice from the book mentioned - it's great advice once a golfer starts hitting most shots the correct distance."

When I said, "If you think it's an 8i, pull 7i and try to hit it over the green.", it was with the above in mind, meaning the 'perfect 7i' isn't going to fly over the green anyway if the pin is middle/front.

With all that said, I'll finish with this:

You..are..absolutely..right. Golfers on this forum would be better off following your advice rather than mine. Consider my opinions to be in the minority with no legitimate basis in fact or reality - I'm just guessing. Your experiences are more valuable than mine, plus I'm not that smart anyway. I'm not a teaching or playing pro and have never held myself out to be either. Any comments I've made may or may not help others with their golf game.

You object to virtually everything I say, so does that make you feel better? My 'forum ego' is about a zero, anyway.

You maybe say a lot of things, most of which I skim at best, but the one thing you say a lot, is that every player who is not at an expert level would score better if they took one more club than they thought they needed for their approach shot. I could have ignored it if you were advocating swinging easier to ensure good contacted and staying connected throught the strike, but no, you're advocating taking even more club than that and trying to hit it over the green. Those were your words, not mine. Whatever your other thoughts are on other matters I could literally not care less, but in case anyone at my home course ever reads your words, I want them to know the real truth. To score well at Balmoral, you need to take LESS club than you think you need. At most take exactly what you need, but never, and I mean never, take 1-2 clubs more and expect to have anything better than a horrible day.

[Dave2512]

I don't think LIA is suggesting it's good course management to blow greens just that new golfers aren't going to make good contact and taking another club somehow translates to the same distance hitting the "right" club would because chances are that will be short too. Though I'm not sure because his posts are kind of confusing. Personally I disagree. For new golfers I don't think being 20y short or 40y short is going to make a big difference and regardless of what club they have in their hands there's just as much a chance they'll blade it as they will hit it fat. With good course management in mind chipping it from the fairway will be easier for them. That said the guy shooting 25 over par isn't hitting many GIR and is likely at least 3 shots to the green on the par 4's and probably 4 shots on the par 5's, if not more. Their approach shot is likely not a full swing but a chip from somewhere adjacent to the green the majority of the time.

[LovinItAll]

You maybe say a lot of things, most of which I skim at best, but the one thing you say a lot, is that [U] every [/U] player who is not at an expert level would score better if they took one more club than they thought they needed for their approach shot. I could have ignored it if you were advocating swinging easier to ensure good contacted and staying connected throught the strike, but no, you're advocating taking even more club than that and trying to hit it over the green. Those were your words, not mine. Whatever your other thoughts are on other matters I could literally not care less, but in case anyone at my home course ever reads your words, I want them to know the real truth. To score well at Balmoral, you need to take LESS club than you think you need. At most take exactly what you need, but never, and I mean never, take 1-2 clubs more and expect to have anything better than a horrible day.

You're right.... The End.

[formula428]

Some good tips and points made.  One thing I've noticed is that I shoot my best when I'm playing solo or with a low-90s/better golfer, both on a relatively open course.  On the other hand, I shoot poorer when I'm with a lesser golfer (120s+), and absolutely horrible (high 50s/low 60s) when people are behind me and I feel as though I rushed.

But, all in all, I always seem to get hung up on one hole.  Here was a 9-hole, Par 35, 70.8/118 from the champ tees where I shot a 52.  If you took out that one hole, which also happened to be a Par 5 and replaced it with an average score (say +2), then I'd easily be in the 40s.  Oh yea, and I putted 1 on that hole to "save" for an 11.

+1  +1  +2  +1  +1  +3  E +6 +2

Or, here's an example where, again, it was really one hole that brought me down...where I putted 4 on this hole (my average is 2.1 strokes/hole).  Course was a 71.4/116 off the champ tees.  I shot a 49 but could have easily had a 47 or better had I cleaned up that hole and played consistently.  This was the first time I'd ever shot 3 pars on 9 (Par 3 and two Par 4s).

+2  E  E  +2  +1 +4 E  +3  +1

So, how do you avoid these types of bad holes, where it nearly wrecks an otherwise great game for you?

[zeg]

Originally Posted by formula428

So, how do you avoid these types of bad holes, where it nearly wrecks an otherwise great game for you?

Let me know if you find the answer. I'm in the same boat (and evidently playing at about the same level, if your posted handicap index is current). The craziest was a 9 hole round with, IIRC, 4 pars, 3 bogeys, an 8 and an 11. The 11 was on the first hole, too, and was followed by 2 or 3 consecutive pars. I did once piece together a 9-hole round with 4 pars and 5 bogeys, so I know it CAN be done, just can't repeat it.

[formula428]

Well, one thing I have noticed during my last outing was that I'm looking at the ball, but not staring it down/focusing. I focused for my last 10 strokes or so, and I placed the ball nearly exactly where I wanted to go for 7 or 8 of those. Otherwise, it seems that I get into trouble chipping in the deep rough around the green and hitting my irons off the fairway (rough is fine, maybe I'm not used to good drives). Putting is generally good (<2 strokes/hole) and drives are manageable. Chipping from the fringe/fw/normal rough is good. Bunkers are decent, too.

[LovinItAll]

Well, there's another side to that coin too. The conventional wisdom is that for most higher handicap players (I include myself in that group), it's better to make the middle of the green than to base your shot on where the pin is.

You're absolutely right. Can't remember who wrote it, but some respected author told an anecdote that went something like,"I improved a golfer's score by 5 shots simply by removing the pin from every hole, forcing him to fire at the middle of every green." (I paraphrase) [quote]Obviously pros get the ball to the hole better than amateurs, but most of that is a result of superior ball striking. [/quote] Yes, that's my point. Removing shots that go nowhere (fat) and rockets that zoom over the green (thin), inferior ball striking results in shots that don't travel as far. The higher the HC, the fewer solid shots are hit during a round. My comments were directed at the OP, who stated his handicap at being 20+. [quote]Those numbers you have there for short/pin-high/long are already pretty close to being evenly distributed, within the margin of error for such a small sample size. If you had included short shots that were *less* than 15' short, they'd be even more so. If you're telling me you think pros purposely try to get past the pin on every shot, I don't believe it.  Whether their goal is short, long, or pin-high depends on many factors, such as whether they are trying to manage a potential miss and not be short sided, and which side of the pin will leave them an uphill putt. [/quote] Hmm....yes, the sample size is small, probably too small to be able to draw any reasonable overall conclusions. It's not evenly distributed, though. Of 31 shots, over 75% were hole high or past the pin. Had I included shots within 15' but short, (half a club), the percentage would have gone up, which is to say that pros - especially those playing in the final groupings on Sunday -rarely leave themselves more than a half club short of the stick. All I'm saying is that, unless you live in some alternate universe where golf courses are designed backwards and the wisdom is to take [b]less[/b] club than you think you need after factoring lie/wind/elevation (still waiting on the name and location of that/those courses), golfers should assess their game re: where their approach shots land. Many - not all - will find, if they step off their distances, that there was really more room to hit more club than they expected or realized. This doesn't apply to all of the golfers who already know that they pull the correct club every time - they don't need anyone's advice. It seems like the higher the HC, the more certain golfers are that they are pulling the right club. Weird, as I often debate what to pull, and I make mistakes every round. Once again, I'd ask some scratch or better golfers to step in and tell everyone what they think. As mentioned, the OP is asking for advice. I hope he gets it here from some experts.

[sacm3bill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

Obviously pros get the ball to the hole better than amateurs, but most of that is a result of superior ball striking.

Yes, that's my point. Removing shots that go nowhere (fat) and rockets that zoom over the green (thin), inferior ball striking results in shots that don't travel as far. The higher the HC, the fewer solid shots are hit during a round.

And no one has disputed that. The debate is over whether or not shots that don't travel as far are a good thing. (And I don't think anyone has added anything new on that score in quite a while.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

Quote:

Those numbers you have there for short/pin-high/long are already pretty close to being evenly distributed, within the margin of error for such a small sample size. If you had included short shots that were *less* than 15' short, they'd be even more so. If you're telling me you think pros purposely try to get past the pin on every shot, I don't believe it.  Whether their goal is short, long, or pin-high depends on many factors, such as whether they are trying to manage a potential miss and not be short sided, and which side of the pin will leave them an uphill putt.

Hmm....yes, the sample size is small, probably too small to be able to draw any reasonable overall conclusions. It's not evenly distributed, though. Of 31 shots, over 75% were hole high or past the pin. Had I included shots within 15' but short, (half a club), the percentage would have gone up, which is to say that pros - especially those playing in the final groupings on Sunday -rarely leave themselves more than a half club short of the stick.

You wrote:

Past the pin = 13
Hole High = 11
More than 15' Short = 7

...and you were making the argument that more shots were long than short. Your data doesn't show that though because you left out some data - specifically the shots that were *less* than 15' short. I have no idea why you are leaving those out but if you hadn't, the numbers for short vs long would be closer to each other.

It doesn't matter though because, as I've said, it doesn't *mean* anything. Maybe the green sloped away so more guys hit it long so they'd have an uphill putt... Maybe the pin was in the front, in which case anyone trying to hit the green would naturally be past it... Maybe there was more tailwind when the guys hit the shots that were past pin high. The data is irrelevant because you aren't taking into account any of those many variables.

[Edited to add:] And besides, why would pros be trying to hit it past the pin anyway? They don't have to worry about short shots from inferior ball striking the way high handicappers do.

[LovinItAll]

[Edited to add:] And besides, why would pros be trying to hit it past the pin anyway? They don't have to worry about short shots from inferior ball striking the way high handicappers do.

The point has never been that hitting it past the pin is better than hitting it short of the pin, but rather that amateurs tend to come up more than a full club short a good percentage of the time. That's why the data I collected didn't include putts within 15' - I considered those 'good' shots, though not all shots past the pin were good shots. What I witness regularly is someone hitting the front a green when the pin is center, for example. They have a 45 footer left. MANY will think they hit the right stick, and in some cases they may be right. Actually, though, they had room to hit another club (given ten yards per club). If they'd hit the other club well, they might still have not ended up hole high, but 15' short instead of 45'. Same with a shot where a guy hits it 20' short. Sometimes that's a great shot, but other times, an extra club would leave them 10' long. 10' is shorter than 20'. I understand that sometimes a player is better off being 20' short than 10' long. At the Open, that usually wasn't the case - the greens weren't severe. At MOST courses/holes, not all, being 10' long on fromt/middle pins isn't penal, and having a 10'er gives the golfer a MUCH better opportunity to make a putt. I've said before that hitting it past the hole is NOT a universally good thing. The idea that I'm advocating hitting it over greens is absurd. The thinking of higher HC amateurs, though, is that an extra club would result in just that, when in most cases, it wouldn't. My point about hitting it over the green was simply that, in many/most cases during a round for higher HC amateurs, pulling an extra club won't result in hitting it over the green. In the rare cases that it does, the am can take some solace in the fact that they hit the ball solidly. The guy that was arguing that, at his home track, long was never good. I said before that I get that - some courses where the greens are so severe, one may never want to be past the pin. That's why I wanted to know the name and location of that course. Again, this has been documented by better players than me: Higher HC amateurs tend to come up short(er) than they think. If they step off their approach shots, many will find that they had more room than they thought. The guy arguing with me framed all of my statements as absolutes. I don't think that way (always/never) and I don't write that way. He's responded to other posts of mine in an argumentative way, though, so maybe he just doesn't like me. That's cool, too. Edit: And to the comment someone made that players are better off taking LESS club than they think, well, I think that's crazy. I'll determine very quickly if I'm playing a course with hard pan fairways and rock hard greens and play accordingly. If I'm playing a goat ranch somewhere that requires me to pull less club than a nicer course, I'll know that quickly and I won't be thinking, 'yeah, it's a 7i' only to discover I should've pulled 8i. Same with severe greens, though in most cases, I'd still rather have a 10' than 20' putt, even if the green is pretty severely sloped. Fast, downhill putts don't bother me at speeds that most courses amateurs play on, but putting is the best part of my game. I realize that's not true for everyone.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

[Edited to add:] And besides, why would pros be trying to hit it past the pin anyway? They don't have to worry about short shots from inferior ball striking the way high handicappers do.

The point has never been that hitting it past the pin is better than hitting it short of the pin, but rather that amateurs tend to come up more than a full club short a good percentage of the time. That's why the data I collected didn't include putts within 15' - I considered those 'good' shots, though not all shots past the pin were good shots.

You seem like a reasonable guy and I'm not trying to be argumentative - I just still don't understand why shots less than 15' short are different than shots less than 15' long. They all leave you with a putt within 15'. What am I missing?

And again, no one has argued that amateurs tend to come up short. That has *not* been your point - your point has been that unintentionally going long with a shot that was hut well is better than unintentionally being short with a shot that was not. And, like I've said before, your analysis that comes to that conclusion assumes in every case that the ball is hit straight. It usually isn't, at least not by the high handicappers you're giving advice to.  And *since* the ball is not usually hit straight, hitting it longer often, if not usually, puts you at more risk of getting in trouble.

Like I said earlier, neither of us are really adding anything new to this topic, so I'm done until something new is. Have the last word if you like. I do appreciate the discussion.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

[Edited to add:] And besides, why would pros be trying to hit it past the pin anyway? They don't have to worry about short shots from inferior ball striking the way high handicappers do.

The point has never been that hitting it past the pin is better than hitting it short of the pin, but rather that amateurs tend to come up more than a full club short a good percentage of the time. That's why the data I collected didn't include putts within 15' - I considered those 'good' shots, though not all shots past the pin were good shots.

What I witness regularly is someone hitting the front a green when the pin is center, for example. They have a 45 footer left. MANY will think they hit the right stick, and in some cases they may be right. Actually, though, they had room to hit another club (given ten yards per club). If they'd hit the other club well, they might still have not ended up hole high, but 15' short instead of 45'.

Same with a shot where a guy hits it 20' short. Sometimes that's a great shot, but other times, an extra club would leave them 10' long. 10' is shorter than 20'. I understand that sometimes a player is better off being 20' short than 10' long. At the Open, that usually wasn't the case - the greens weren't severe. At MOST courses/holes, not all, being 10' long on fromt/middle pins isn't penal, and having a 10'er gives the golfer a MUCH better opportunity to make a putt. I've said before that hitting it past the hole is NOT a universally good thing.

The idea that I'm advocating hitting it over greens is absurd. The thinking of higher HC amateurs, though, is that an extra club would result in just that, when in most cases, it wouldn't. My point about hitting it over the green was simply that, in many/most cases during a round for higher HC amateurs, pulling an extra club won't result in hitting it over the green. In the rare cases that it does, the am can take some solace in the fact that they hit the ball solidly.

The guy that was arguing that, at his home track, long was never good. I said before that I get that - some courses where the greens are so severe, one may never want to be past the pin. That's why I wanted to know the name and location of that course.

Again, this has been documented by better players than me: Higher HC amateurs tend to come up short(er) than they think. If they step off their approach shots, many will find that they had more room than they thought.

The guy arguing with me framed all of my statements as absolutes. I don't think that way (always/never) and I don't write that way. He's responded to other posts of mine in an argumentative way, though, so maybe he just doesn't like me. That's cool, too.

Edit: And to the comment someone made that players are better off taking LESS club than they think, well, I think that's crazy. I'll determine very quickly if I'm playing a course with hard pan fairways and rock hard greens and play accordingly. If I'm playing a goat ranch somewhere that requires me to pull less club than a nicer course, I'll know that quickly and I won't be thinking, 'yeah, it's a 7i' only to discover I should've pulled 8i. Same with severe greens, though in most cases, I'd still rather have a 10' than 20' putt, even if the green is pretty severely sloped. Fast, downhill putts don't bother me at speeds that most courses amateurs play on, but putting is the best part of my game. I realize that's not true for everyone.

That guy would debate directly with you if you didn't keep saying things in an authoritative manner, then go and deny saying them at all. I prefer to discuss things with people who can stick by what they say. It helps if they say things that aren't total BS.

[Dave2512]

Originally Posted by formula428

Some good tips and points made.  One thing I've noticed is that I shoot my best when I'm playing solo or with a low-90s/better golfer, both on a relatively open course.  On the other hand, I shoot poorer when I'm with a lesser golfer (120s+), and absolutely horrible (high 50s/low 60s) when people are behind me and I feel as though I rushed.

But, all in all, I always seem to get hung up on one hole.  Here was a 9-hole, Par 35, 70.8/118 from the champ tees where I shot a 52.  If you took out that one hole, which also happened to be a Par 5 and replaced it with an average score (say +2), then I'd easily be in the 40s.  Oh yea, and I putted 1 on that hole to "save" for an 11.

+1  +1  +2  +1  +1  +3  E  +6  +2

Or, here's an example where, again, it was really one hole that brought me down...where I putted 4 on this hole (my average is 2.1 strokes/hole).  Course was a 71.4/116 off the champ tees.  I shot a 49 but could have easily had a 47 or better had I cleaned up that hole and played consistently.  This was the first time I'd ever shot 3 pars on 9 (Par 3 and two Par 4s).

+2  E  E  +2  +1  +4  E  +3  +1

So, how do you avoid these types of bad holes, where it nearly wrecks an otherwise great game for you?

If you just started and you're doing that good it will work out with a little experience and practice.

[LovinItAll]

You seem like a reasonable guy and I'm not trying to be argumentative - I just still don't understand why shots less than 15' short are different than shots less than 15' long. They all leave you with a putt within 15'. What am I missing?

You're not missing anything. Being 15' long/short is usually the same thing (or close enough). [quote]And again, no one has argued that amateurs tend to come up short. That has *not* been your point - your point has been that unintentionally going long with a shot that was hut well is better than unintentionally being short with a shot that was not. [/quote] Yes, they have argued that point. Check out the poll I created and the answers within it. Yes, that amateurs tend to come up a club+ short more often than not has been my point from the very beginning. That is EXACTLY my point. No, being unintentionally short is no better than going unintentionally long. I just don't know how many ways to say it, and I've never contradicted myself: Most amateurs come up shorter than they realize, whether that's because of a mishit or whatever. Because MY experiences with my own eyes has shown me this doesn't mean it's true for everyone, nor is it true for every amateur, nor is it true for anyone all the time. [quote]And, like I've said before, your analysis that comes to that conclusion assumes in every case that the ball is hit straight. It usually isn't, at least not by the high handicappers you're giving advice to.  And *since* the ball is not usually hit straight, hitting it longer often, if not usually, puts you at more risk of getting in trouble.[/quote] We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Most (not all) green complexes have their greatest defense in front of the green. If a player doesn't hit it straight, the player has also probably cost themselves some distance with their typical fade/slice (yes, I know that if they pull it, the ball may actually go further. That's not the typical miss with high HC'ers like the OP, though). So when they don't hit it straight AND they cost themselves yardage, they'd be even better off having taken more club with the same miss. That's just an opinion....I'm still allowed to have one, right? Again, I've said exactly the same thing over and over...I haven't waffled or otherwise strayed from my original statements. The one thing that keeps being said that I NEVER said was that I advocate trying to hit it over the green on every approach. I never said that. Jackie Burke once said something like this: "Amateurs should look at approach shots and figure out which club they'd bet $500 they could hit over the green and then pick one club shorter than that and hit a full shot." Maybe that's a better way of saying what I'm trying to say? For the uber wordsmiths here, he wasn't talking about pulling driver every time to 'win the bet'. [quote]    I do appreciate the discussion. [/quote] As do I.....cheers! Edit: Let me add one last note: I take my own advice, btw. If I'm not hitting hit solidly during a round and I get to a shot that's a 'stock 9i', I'll OFTEN pull 8. If I catch it cleanly, okay, I have a 30-40'er instead of being hole high. I can deal with that. Had I missed 9i, I'd have been short of the green. Maybe that would have been penal, maybe not. I like being on the putting surface. Others may feel differently. As always, I respect that.

[formula428]

Actually, regarding the whole "higher handicaps should take more club" I find that incorrect for myself.  I generally hit short when less than 60y.  Otherwise, I'm almost always slightly long (or even but off to the left/right which meant I would have otherwise been long), especially with my 7 through PW.  I typically have just about the correct distance with my 4 through 6, but generally pull the ball slightly (again meaning that I would otherwise be long).

And there are sometimes when that's good, because the green slopes down in the front.  But if I sail it past the green, that's almost always bad news for the different courses I've played.