A perfect round, or sandbagging?

[BuckeyeNut]

Yikes......

[rhh7]

I was considering paying $75 to join the Men's Golf Association at my local municipal course.

Then I would establish an official handicap, and participate in the weekly tournaments.

Well, I glanced at the scoresheets, and noticed that last week's winner was 62 net.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by rhh7

I was considering paying $75 to join the Men's Golf Association at my local municipal course.

Then I would establish an official handicap, and participate in the weekly tournaments.

Well, I glanced at the scoresheets, and noticed that last week's winner was 62 net.

Might still be worth it for the competition, but just know you're donating that $75, unless you win a few hole prizes.

[JerseyThursday]

Here, if you shoot a net score below the course rating you are disqualified from the next three handicap events.
Seems to do the trick.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by JerseyThursday

Here, if you shoot a net score below the course rating you are disqualified from the next three handicap events.

Seems to do the trick.

That's not a very good way to do it. According to the USGA’s Handicap Research Team, the average player is expected to play to their handicap (i.e., shoot the net course rating) or better 25 percent of the time.  Your committee must be DQing a lot of people (about 1/4 of the field) who are keeping honest handicaps and shooting honest scores.  Either that, or people are cheating by missing putts on the last 2 or 3 holes if they're playing too well.

[JerseyThursday]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

That's not a very good way to do it. According to the USGA’s Handicap Research Team, the average player is expected to play to their handicap (i.e., shoot the net course rating) or better 25 percent of the time.  Your committee must be DQing a lot of people (about 1/4 of the field) who are keeping honest handicaps and shooting honest scores.  Either that, or people are cheating by missing putts on the last 2 or 3 holes if they're playing too well.

10 handicap shoots an 74 (par 70, course rating 65). He’s done for 3 events and is looked on as a major sandbagger. It has been very effective and the lower handicappers love it.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by JerseyThursday

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

That's not a very good way to do it. According to the USGA’s Handicap Research Team, the average player is expected to play to their handicap (i.e., shoot the net course rating) or better 25 percent of the time.  Your committee must be DQing a lot of people (about 1/4 of the field) who are keeping honest handicaps and shooting honest scores.  Either that, or people are cheating by missing putts on the last 2 or 3 holes if they're playing too well.

10 handicap shoots an 74 (par 70, course rating 65). He’s done for 3 events and is looked on as a major sandbagger. It has been very effective and the lower handicappers love it.

That's ridiculous. Either you're mistaken about the policy in effect for your tournaments, or the policy makers are grossly uninformed as to how the USGA handicap system works.

Again, an honest handicapper is going to shoot a net course rating (65 in this case), or better, 25% of the time. Put another way, on average 25% of the golfers in a tournament will shoot net course rating or better.

You don't mention the slope (that's what actually determines someone's course handicap for purposes of calculating their net score), but unless it's at one extreme or the other a 10 handicapper is going to have about a 10 course index.  65 is a pretty low course rating, which makes a 74 by a 10 handicapper not unusual at all.

[Shaggie13]

I'm a 10 handicapper and I just shot a 74 a month ago.  I made 5 or 6 25 ft puts to save par and a couple for birdie.  It happens.  Granted I have been a single digit about 4 years ago when I played more.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by JerseyThursday

10 handicap shoots an 74 (par 70, course rating 65). He’s done for 3 events and is looked on as a major sandbagger. It has been very effective and the lower handicappers love it.

That is absurd.  Unless you can shoot your exact best score 10 times, it is mathematically impossible to not beat your index roughly half the time.  By your definition, 100% of people who have a HDCP (OK, 99.99999% to exclude the one guy in america who legitimately shoots his best score 10 times) are "major sandbaggers."

Sac is right ... you are either mistaken about the policy, or your rule makers don't understand handicaps ...

Quote:

That's ridiculous. Either you're mistaken about the policy in effect for your tournaments, or the policy makers are grossly uninformed as to how the USGA handicap system works.

Again, an honest handicapper is going to shoot a net course rating (65 in this case), or better, 25% of the time. Put another way, on average 25% of the golfers in a tournament will shoot net course rating or better.

You don't mention the slope (that's what actually determines someone's course handicap for purposes of calculating their net score), but unless it's at one extreme or the other a 10 handicapper is going to have about a 10 course index.  65 is a pretty low course rating, which makes a 74 by a 10 handicapper not unusual at all.

Exactly.  By definition, you will beat your hdcp 25% of time.  The average of the best 10 of your last 20 means that unless you shoot right on your hdcp, 5 of those 10 will be better and 5 will be worse than your index.  Now that is oversimplifying it ... because you could theoretically have 9-82's and 1-72 = a 9 index (assuming CR 72) so that guy only beat his index 5% of the time ... but in general it would work out that way.

Originally Posted by Shaggie13

I'm a 10 handicapper and I just shot a 74 a month ago.  I made 5 or 6 25 ft puts to save par and a couple for birdie.  It happens.  Granted I have been a single digit about 4 years ago when I played more.

Same here ... except it was 2 months ago.  I drove the ball pretty well, AND played a course with little trouble off the tee - which is my achilles heel.  This course had parallel fairways and very little OB or hazards, so I finished the round with the same ball I started. (by contrast, last round I played a course with trouble on both sides of all holes, couple that with driving poorly, and I lost 10 balls!)  I also only had 28 putts.

And that course was a 71 rating I believe ... so I guess I am a MAJOR sandbagger!

[x129]

A 10 shooting a 74  happens. Depending on the exact situation (course difficulty) that is a 1:1000 to 1:500 type event.  A 10 shooting a  66 or so (about what the winners did) doesn't happen very often (>1:100k type event). Doing it 3x times in a row really puts it over the top. And if your partner says, yeah he chipped in twice and made 3 long putts people tend to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you had a good round.  When your playing partners don't want to comment on your performance, it looks bad.

Originally Posted by Shaggie13

I'm a 10 handicapper and I just shot a 74 a month ago.  I made 5 or 6 25 ft puts to save par and a couple for birdie.  It happens.  Granted I have been a single digit about 4 years ago when I played more.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by x129

A 10 shooting a 74  happens. Depending on the exact situation (course difficulty) that is a 1:1000 to 1:500 type event.

It depends mostly on the course rating, but it can be much more likely than that. From http://www.usga.org/handicapping/articles_resources/Odds-of-an-Exceptional-Tournament-Score/:

Rating         Odds of a 10 shooting a 74 (net 64) or better:

64               1 in 4

65               1 in 10

66               1 in 22

67               1 in 51

68               1 in 121

69               1 in 276

70               1 in 536

71               1 in 1200

72               1 in 4467

Note that these numbers are for shooting a given score *or better*. That means that for each line, the odds of shooting that exact score are even more likely.

[x129]

I sort of assumed that if you are playing a course with a rating less than 70 you would mention it.  If you are playing some sub 5000 yard course, then yeah a 10 shooting a 74 isn't really that notable. The point was the gap between a 10 shooting a 74 (~8 shots better than you would expect) is a whole different category than a 6.5 dropping a 61 (~17 shots better than expected). One is a great performance that happens every couple of years if you play a lot of golf. The other is a once in 1000 year type performance that you are unlikely to see. They do happen. Now the OP's format messes up the numbers a bit, but 2 drives and then alternating shots doesn't seem like something that will result in a 61. Heck a 61 with a 2 man scramble is good fo a 6.5 an a double digit guy.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

It depends mostly on the course rating, but it can be much more likely than that. From http://www.usga.org/handicapping/articles_resources/Odds-of-an-Exceptional-Tournament-Score/:

Rating         Odds of a 10 shooting a 74 (net 64) or better:

64               1 in 4

65               1 in 10

66               1 in 22

67               1 in 51

68               1 in 121

69               1 in 276

70               1 in 536

71               1 in 1200

72               1 in 4467

Note that these numbers are for shooting a given score *or better*. That means that for each line, the odds of shooting that exact score are even more likely.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by x129

I sort of assumed that if you are playing a course with a rating less than 70 you would mention it.

There's a side discussion going on here about DQ'ing anyone who shoots a net course rating or better.  As part of that side discussion, an example of a 10 handicapper who shots a 74 was used. Since you referenced that in your post, I assumed you were taking part in that side discussion - and in that discussion, the course rating was only 65.  Just wanted to clarify that.

[x129]

The DQing anyone that a net course rating or better is beyond nuts as everyone will get DQed if you play a dozen events. Not to mention it should lead to crap like people 5 putting on the 18th green to get there score back to an "Acceptable" level.

I was pointing out the difference between a 10 shooting a 74 (on an unknown course) and a 6.5 shooting a 61 (on a supposed 6400 yard course) is huge. The first one happens on a regular basis. The second is a once in couple life times event.  Now if that 74 turns out to be from the tips at Bethpage Black, then we can talk about those being the same difficulty.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

There's a side discussion going on here about DQ'ing anyone who shoots a net course rating or better.  As part of that side discussion, an example of a 10 handicapper who shots a 74 was used. Since you referenced that in your post, I assumed you were taking part in that side discussion - and in that discussion, the course rating was only 65.  Just wanted to clarify that.

[dsc123]

The best line from the article:

Quote:

"Featherstone said, 'I'm probably the best putter in the United States,' " Granno said. "That was his explanation."

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/08/22/4746690/working-the-honor-systemgolf-counts.html#storylink=cpy

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/08/22/4746690/working-the-honor-systemgolf-counts.html#storylink=cp

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by JerseyThursday

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

That's not a very good way to do it. According to the USGA’s Handicap Research Team, the average player is expected to play to their handicap (i.e., shoot the net course rating) or better 25 percent of the time.  Your committee must be DQing a lot of people (about 1/4 of the field) who are keeping honest handicaps and shooting honest scores.  Either that, or people are cheating by missing putts on the last 2 or 3 holes if they're playing too well.

10 handicap shoots an 74 (par 70, course rating 65). He’s done for 3 events and is looked on as a major sandbagger. It has been very effective and the lower handicappers love it.

Wouldn't a 10 handicapper on your course by definition be averaging pretty close to 75 (gross) every time out? I've never played a par 70 course with a 65 rating, but if I didn't break 80 on that course I might smash my clubs and find a new hobby.

[JerseyThursday]

I called and had my facts mixed up. The course is rating of 67 with a slope of 114 and a par of 70.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by JerseyThursday

I called and had my facts mixed up. The course is rating of 67 with a slope of 114 and a par of 70.

Well, the course rating and slope isn't really what's in question.  The point is, it doesn't make any sense to DQ someone for shooting net course rating, regardless of what that is, because honest golfers shoot net course rating (otherwise known as "playing to their handicap") 25% of the time.