Handicap Scoring for loss of hole penalty in Match Play

[MEfree]

For handicapping purposes, how do you score a loss of hole penalty in match play?

i.e. suppose I hit the wrong ball for my second shot, then find the correct ball and complete the hole with the correct ball and make 5.  In a stroke play event, my correct score would be 7 including the two shot penalty, but in match play, I lose the hole regardless of what my opponent makes.  Do I take a 7 for handicapping purposes?

Also, what is the rational for making it automatic loss of hole?  Is hitting the wrong ball (in my case the same brand/number from deep rough) really that much worse than hitting a ball OB?

[rustyredcab]

Part #1: You take the score you either had or most likely would have had on the hole. So if you are pick up a 30 foot putt because the hole is over, you could say you two-putted and record that score for handicap purposes. You should not assume that you would have made it. If you are in a real matchplay situation where many holes are pick-up concessions long before you know what you may have gotten on the hole, then don't record the score. Remember that you have a max for handicap purposes on any given hole. So if you are hitting 7 off the tee, it does not really matter for handicap purposes how badly you finish the hole because you will likely max out, even if your opponent is doing so badly that you keep playing to see if your 10 beats his 11. I feel that match play had the potential to inflate my scores since I am compelled to take risks that I would avoid if simple playing for score. If it looks like 5 will loose the hole, no sense playing it safe and carding a 5.

Part #2: Who said the rules are rational? There are a number of loss of hole penalties. Seems like the fathers of the game really did not want you to hit the wrong ball. The good news is that loss of hole penalties move the game along.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Part #1: You take the score you either had or ...

So if I had a 5 not counting any penalty is my score a 7 counting the two stroke penalty I would have received had I been playing stroke play?  My max ESC is 7 and I played a good 9 except for 1 other hole, so it might make a difference.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

...If you are in a real matchplay situation where many holes are pick-up concessions long before you know what you may have gotten on the hole, then don't record the score...

I don't think that's correct - section 4.1 of the USGA Handicap Manual (see http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-04/ and Decision 4-1/1) states that once you've started a hole, if you don't finish you should record your "most likely score" based on strokes you've already taken, in both stroke and match play.

Originally Posted by MEfree

i.e. suppose I hit the wrong ball for my second shot, then find the correct ball and complete the hole with the correct ball and make 5.  In a stroke play event, my correct score would be 7 including the two shot penalty, but in match play, I lose the hole regardless of what my opponent makes.  Do I take a 7 for handicapping purposes?

Other than what I wrote above, I agree with everything rustyredcab said, and to answer your specific question, yes you would take a 7 for handicapping purposes since that's your actual score with the wrong ball penalty.

That said, I've always thought there are issues with applying some penalties to handicap-posted scores. Handicap is supposed to measure your potential to get the ball in the hole, not your ability to identify your ball properly. In the scenario above, you eventually played your original ball as it lies from tee to holing out, you just happened to take a single extra stroke at the wrong ball. I don't see why that means your golfing potential is better represented by recording a 7 instead of a 5. Another example is if you accidentally move the ball while lining up a putt. After replacing it, you still have to make the same putt, but you add a stroke to your score - it doesn't seem to me that the added stroke accurately represents your putting or golfing ability.

Of course the current system is probably better than trying to figure out which penalties should apply for handicap purposes and which should not.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Other than what I wrote above, I agree with everything rustyredcab said, and to answer your specific question, yes you would take a 7 for handicapping purposes since that's your actual score with the wrong ball penalty.

I agree with you but I am not sure it is correct to say that my actual score was 7.  Had my opponent made a 7 or higher, I still would have lost the hole...it does not make sense that a 7 would lose to an 7+, so given that I was playing match play, I think my estimated score was 7 (5 on my first ball plus the 2 stroke penalty I would have received had I been playing stroke play).

[Shorty]

How can you be scoring for handicap in match play when there are conceded putts and unfinished holes, etc?

Match play is not the same as stroke play.

For example, if your partner has had 5 shots on a hole and you are lying two 30 feet away from the hole and he concedes the hole, what are you are you going to score there, 3?

Play the match and keep it at that.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Other than what I wrote above, I agree with everything rustyredcab said, and to answer your specific question, yes you would take a 7 for handicapping purposes since that's your actual score with the wrong ball penalty

I agree with you but I am not sure it is correct to say that my actual score was 7.  Had my opponent made a 7 or higher, I still would have lost the hole...it does not make sense that a 7 would lose to an 7+, so given that I was playing match play, I think my estimated score was 7 (5 on my first ball plus the 2 stroke penalty I would have received had I been playing stroke play).

Oh, I think I get what you're saying - in match play the hole would be over once you discovered you had played the wrong ball, so you would not have holed out with the correct ball as you would've in stroke play. In that case yes, you would obviously use an estimated score since you didn't hole out.

Originally Posted by Shorty

How can you be scoring for handicap in match play when there are conceded putts and unfinished holes, etc?

Match play is not the same as stroke play.

For example, if your partner has had 5 shots on a hole and you are lying two 30 feet away from the hole and he concedes the hole, what are you are you going to score there, 3?

Play the match and keep it at that.

This has already been covered in this thread Shorty. You put down what your most likely score would've been, which in your example would probably be a 2-putt 4 (unless the player is the self-proclaimed "probably the best putter in the United States" (see http://thesandtrap.com/t/61648/a-perfect-round-or-sandbagging ).

I know you don't like our system but that's how it works in the USGA.

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by Shorty

How can you be scoring for handicap in match play when there are conceded putts and unfinished holes, etc?

Match play is not the same as stroke play.

For example, if your partner has had 5 shots on a hole and you are lying two 30 feet away from the hole and he concedes the hole, what are you are you going to score there, 3?

Play the match and keep it at that.

Most friendly games have some match play element to the game. Conceded putts are part of that game.

IMO, there is no perfect answer. If you don't post rounds because of match play concessions, and you play mostly match play, then you don't post many scores and your handicap may not reflect your game. If you are conceded a 30 foot putt, you record your most likely score -- in my case two more strokes. But again, if the concession happens while I'm 100 yards away, and happens a bunch of times, it seems like recording a score with a bunch of guesses is not accurate either.

Sure, everyone can just play everything out. But that is not in the spirit of, and ignores a benefit of, match play which is faster play.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Other than what I wrote above, I agree with everything rustyredcab said, and to answer your specific question, yes you would take a 7 for handicapping purposes since that's your actual score with the wrong ball penalty

I agree with you but I am not sure it is correct to say that my actual score was 7.  Had my opponent made a 7 or higher, I still would have lost the hole...it does not make sense that a 7 would lose to an 7+, so given that I was playing match play, I think my estimated score was 7 (5 on my first ball plus the 2 stroke penalty I would have received had I been playing stroke play).

Oh, I think I get what you're saying - in match play the hole would be over once you discovered you had played the wrong ball, so you would not have holed out with the correct ball as you would've in stroke play. In that case yes, you would obviously use an estimated score since you didn't hole out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shorty

How can you be scoring for handicap in match play when there are conceded putts and unfinished holes, etc?

Match play is not the same as stroke play.

For example, if your partner has had 5 shots on a hole and you are lying two 30 feet away from the hole and he concedes the hole, what are you are you going to score there, 3?

Play the match and keep it at that.

This has already been covered in this thread Shorty. You put down what your most likely score would've been, which in your example would probably be a 2-putt 4 (unless the player is the self-proclaimed "probably the best putter in the United States" (see http://thesandtrap.com/t/61648/a-perfect-round-or-sandbagging ).

I know you don't like our system but that's how it works in the USGA.

We play [theoretically] a very similar system in Canada and I will not enter match play scores. Maybe I should though since my gross scores are always higher (like 3-5 strokes at least) for match play rounds.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Most friendly games have some match play element to the game. Conceded putts are part of that game.

IMO, there is no perfect answer. If you don't post rounds because of match play concessions, and you play mostly match play, then you don't post many scores and your handicap may not reflect your game. If you are conceded a 30 foot putt, you record your most likely score -- in my case two more strokes. But again, if the concession happens while I'm 100 yards away, and happens a bunch of times, it seems like recording a score with a bunch of guesses is not accurate either.

Sure, everyone can just play everything out. But that is not in the spirit of, and ignores a benefit of, match play which is faster play.

Originally Posted by Shorty

How can you be scoring for handicap in match play when there are conceded putts and unfinished holes, etc?

Match play is not the same as stroke play.

For example, if your partner has had 5 shots on a hole and you are lying two 30 feet away from the hole and he concedes the hole, what are you are you going to score there, 3?

Play the match and keep it at that

IMO, Rusty has it right.  I never said there were conceded putts, unfinished holes, etc.  I was playing a friendly match with a friend`s son with no stakes other than pride involved.  They were visiting me as part of a golf vacation and it was the first time any of us had played the Raven at Three Peaks.  We wanted to have legit scores so the only things conceded were within the leather (and I doubt I picked up anything over a foot).

[Dormie1360]

Hey guys,

I wouldn't over analyze this.  For handicap purposes, post all acceptable scores, which include match play scores. Rusty pretty much covered how to score conceded holes.  Think of it in terms of the score you would have most likely have made if you would have finished the hole.  To do this, think of completing the hole from the same position 10 times.  What would your final score be more than 50% of the time.  (note: you may complete or play out the hole for posting purposes if you wish, however the resulting score does not change the concession.)   If you incur penalty strokes under the rules of golf, include them.  If your score for a hole is above equitable stroke control, give yourself the max score.

From the GHIN handicap manual.

c. Scores in All Forms of Competition

Scores in both match play and stroke play must be posted for handicap purposes. This includes scores made in match play, in multi-ball, or in team competitions in which players have not completed one or more holes or in which players are requested to pick up when out of contention on a hole. (See Decision 5-1c/1 and Section 4 .)

[sean_miller]

This is the perfect recipe for sandbagging - guessing what you'd score or playing out a hole which was already conceded.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

This is the perfect recipe for sandbagging - guessing what you'd score or playing out a hole which was already conceded.

Hi Sean,

Here are some examples from the USGA Handicap Manual.  I could go over some of the logic in this if you're interested... the USGA does give this stuff a lot of thought .  No system is perfect....people who want to cheat will find a way to cheat.

Section 4 ADJUSTING HOLE SCORES

Definitions

Within each section, all defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in Section 2 - Definitions.

The game of golf is based on the premise that a player will play as well as the player can play . Under the USGA Handicap System, each player is required to record a hole score for a hole not finished, not played, or not played under "The Rules of Golf," and to reduce any hole score when it is higher than the maximum number allowed under Equitable Stroke Control .

4-1. Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the most likely score . The most likely score may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit, defined in Section 4-3 . Thi s most likely score should be preceded by an "X." (See Decision 4-1/1 .)

There is no limit to the number of unfinished holes a player may have in a round, provided that failure to finish is not for the purpose of handicap manipulation.

Example 1: A and B are partners in a four-ball stroke play competition. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A lies two, 18 feet from the hole. B lies two, 25 feet from the hole. B holes a putt for a 3. A picks up on the hole, because A cannot better B's score. A records X-4 on the scorecard because 4 is A's most likely score.

Example 2: A and B are playing a match. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A has holed out in 4; B has a 30-foot putt for a 5. B has lost the hole, and picks up. B records X-6 on the scorecard because 6 is B's most likely score .

Example 3: A and B are playing a match. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A is one foot from the hole, lying 4. B is 10 feet from the hole, lying 3. B putts and misses. They both concede a half. Both players record X-5 because that is their most likely score .

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Principles of The Rules of Golf

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the principles of the Rules of Golf (except for preferred lies ), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 10 receives a handicap stroke on the first 10 allocated handicap-stroke holes. If the player does not play the sixth allocated handicap-stroke hole, which is a par 4, because of construction on the green, the player must record a score of par plus one for handicap purposes, or X-5.

Most Likely Score

A " most likely score" is the score a player must post for handicap purposes if a hole is started but not completed or if the player is conceded a stroke. The most likely score consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in the player's best judgment, the number of strokes the player would take to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. This number may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit. (See Section 4-3 .)

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Hi Sean,

Here are some examples from the USGA Handicap Manual.  I could go over some of the logic in this if you're interested...the USGA does give this stuff a lot of thought.  No system is perfect....people who want to cheat will find a way to cheat.

You are right, but as someone mentioned in another thread, bowling handicaps are typically based exclusively on league scores and don`t include practice rounds.  I am not a bowler, so I don`t know how it works the first time a player wants to play in the league.  Golf handicaps would be more accurate if done this way, but there are too many people that don`t play enough competitive rounds for whatever reason.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Golf handicaps would be more accurate if done this way, but there are too many people that don`t play enough competitive rounds for whatever reason.

Absolutely, handicaps would be more accurate with tournament scores.  The USGA does give more "significance" to tournament scores if a golfer posts them.....but it's not perfect.  At our club, we've come up with our own  "tournament handicaps" for our club tournaments which puts extra weight on all club tournament scores a player has made in the proceeding 12 months.  This includes any match play scores in our match play tournaments.

One of the other things we do in match play, is consider the "tournament round" over when the match is won.  For the remaining holes, if any, we give par plus handicap strokes.  Before we did this, we would have players win a match say on the 16th hole and then go double, double on the last two holes.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

This is the perfect recipe for sandbagging - guessing what you'd score or playing out a hole which was already conceded.

Hi Sean,

Here are some examples from the USGA Handicap Manual.  I could go over some of the logic in this if you're interested...the USGA does give this stuff a lot of thought.  No system is perfect....people who want to cheat will find a way to cheat.

The USGA is useless when it comes to weeding out sandbaggers based on the two sandbaggers calling out two super mega sandbaggers in California thread. The USGA is a toothless organization unless someone's playing in a USGA event. For league play at most courses people find all kinds of ways to sandbag. Doing it right in front of witnesses under the guise of "finishing the hole after it's been conceded" is an easy way to add a few strokes per round.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

This is the perfect recipe for sandbagging - guessing what you'd score or playing out a hole which was already conceded.

Like Dormie1360 says, people who want to cheat will find a way to cheat. The guidelines for estimating a score give people who want to keep a legitimate handicap a way to do it when they don't finish a hole for a legitimate reason. People who aren't going to follow those guidelines honestly have much easier ways of cheating if they want to (like simply entering totally bogus high scores, or not entering actual low ones).

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

Golf handicaps would be more accurate if done this way, but there are too many people that don`t play enough competitive rounds for whatever reason.

Absolutely, handicaps would be more accurate with tournament scores.

Not necessarily. Only if they play a lot of tournament rounds, as MEfree alluded to. For people who don't, it's easy to imagine their handicap being highly inaccurate if it's based mostly on old tournament scores - their current skill level might be a great deal better or worse since then, but it wouldn't be reflected in their handicap if they haven't played tournaments recently.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

The USGA is useless when it comes to weeding out sandbaggers based on the two sandbaggers calling out two super mega sandbaggers in California thread. The USGA is a toothless organization unless someone's playing in a USGA event. For league play at most courses people find all kinds of ways to sandbag. Doing it right in front of witnesses under the guise of "finishing the hole after it's been conceded" is an easy way to add a few strokes per round.

I agree with the bolded.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Not necessarily. Only if they play a lot of tournament rounds, as MEfree alluded to. For people who don't, it's easy to imagine their handicap being highly inaccurate if it's based mostly on old tournament scores - their current skill level might be a great deal better or worse since then, but it wouldn't be reflected in their handicap if they haven't played tournaments recently.

Agreed.  I would make the point however, that most sandbaggers play in a lot of tournaments.  I'm not overly familiar with the handicap system in Europe, but I think they use more "competition" scores for handicaps or something geared more towards  tournament scores.

I'm not familiar with the "California thread" so I don't know the particulars of what happened.  As far as the USGA being toothless or useless I would point out a misconception that many have as how this is suppose to work.  The USGA is not the front line enforcer, they just lay out the rules.  The enforcers are suppose to be players.  They have the tools to fix sandbaggers.  Every club  is suppose to have a handicap committee which has all the tools and rules necessary to change any "sandbaggers" index, or even take away their handicap.  But, I'd agree that it's almost never done.  But don't just blame the USGA.

I've been the handicap committee chair at my club for a number of years......people, whether players, or club employees could fix almost all the problems but they don't want to be the bad guy.  Players like to bitch, but ask them to get involved in an actual committee proceeding on the matter and they back off.  Club employees are hesitant to get involved because of their position as an employee of  club members.