Should there be a tournament only handicap system? Playing during the week when tees are up and pins are easy hurts people.

[Dave2512]

9 holes or 18? Would have to be a pretty long par 3 course to even have a rating. Where is it? I'd like to see this par 3 monster. A tournament on a par 3 sounds like a lot of fun.

[x129]

There are just as many complaints about the european system. You end up with guys who play 4 tournaments a year who are using scores from 3 years ago when they were much better or worse. The only advantage is that people are inputting more legit rounds (no give mes, mulligans, and the like) but that is more of a vanity capper issue than a sandbagger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

That's what they do in Europe. Only tournament scores count.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444508504577595520292184822.html

The downside is that it is slow to change and you may have outplayed your handicap if you haven't posted a score in a while.

[Todd Ruggere]

Originally Posted by Dave2512

9 holes or 18? Would have to be a pretty long par 3 course to even have a rating. Where is it? I'd like to see this par 3 monster. A tournament on a par 3 sounds like a lot of fun.

Its ridiculous. About 25 miles south of Boston.

http://www.rocklandgolfcourse.com/

Click on scorecard. I love when people say, "Oh you play a par 3 pitch and putt".. I would invite any amount of golfers handicap 0-5 see if they can break 60. You bring any golfer there that has never played it and they will not score well. I brought a 6 handicap a few years ago and he shot something like 78-73. The course rating is i think 57.7 and the slope 87 (i think)

[Lefty-Golfer]

it seems to me if what you say is correct the super could correct the problem just by changing his set up a little bit. there is no reason what every T should be back or pin hard just because it is a weekend or up and easy just because it is a thursday.

[Dave2512]

Originally Posted by Todd Ruggere

Its ridiculous. About 25 miles south of Boston.

http://www.rocklandgolfcourse.com/

Click on scorecard. I love when people say, "Oh you play a par 3 pitch and putt".. I would invite any amount of golfers handicap 0-5 see if they can break 60. You bring any golfer there that has never played it and they will not score well. I brought a 6 handicap a few years ago and he shot something like 78-73. The course rating is i think 57.7 and the slope 87 (i think)

Looks cool. Can't the guys complaining play from the blacks during the week or do they move those back more on tournament day. Given the the distance difference between the black and blue tees it doesn't look like they can vary it too much unless the tee boxes are huge. Tough to think 164y difference over 18 holes is debilitating.

We have a somewhat long par 3 here, 9 holes at around 1200y. Number 6 has two tiers of boxes with a range of about 35y. At the very back it's 204. But that course is chopped up, 3 180-200y holes with 3 as short as 55y and some just over 100y. Though in my experience the short ones eat more strokes than the long ones because the greens are protected by water. But same thing, it does't feel like a pitch and putt course due to the many hazards and the layout.

I'd be all over joining a league at one of the exec courses here if one was close to me.

[Todd Ruggere]

The funniest thing about playing this course is that I've been playing since since i was as junior (almost 30 yrs) and I still don't have a hole in one. I'm about the only one at this point. My dad has 4 and he's a 13 handicap. My mom has one. There are 12 handicaps that have over 10 aces. I'm about to give up!!

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Scores entered as tournament scores, if done correctly, will be flagged with a "T".  This is so that they can be identified and tracked if a trend of some sort should develop.  This would also require an active handicap chairman to keep tabs on them and make note of any such trend.  My home Men's Club had active handicap tracking through the handicap committee (and members were "adjusted" if a suspicious trend developed), but it seems that many do not.  There is no automatic method that I know of that would just track tournament scores.  Some clubs block the members from entering their own scores, and only enter tournament scores for handicap, but this is a bit of a lazy way out.  It makes handicap changes occur very slowly, often much slower than the player's advancement, so that he competes with an inflated handicap any time when his game is in an improvement mode.

We used to always have the Pro Staff enter tournament scores but we felt that, as a result, we had a very uninformed membership. A few years back we had some instruction sessions, some blast emails with relevant information on what to do, and have the player sign in to the Pro Shop that they were specifically playing in a tournament.

What a mess. It's been ridiculously inconsistent and unmanageable ever since. We will probably go back to putting it on the Golf Staff again.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by phan52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Scores entered as tournament scores, if done correctly, will be flagged with a "T".  This is so that they can be identified and tracked if a trend of some sort should develop.  This would also require an active handicap chairman to keep tabs on them and make note of any such trend.  My home Men's Club had active handicap tracking through the handicap committee (and members were "adjusted" if a suspicious trend developed), but it seems that many do not.  There is no automatic method that I know of that would just track tournament scores.  Some clubs block the members from entering their own scores, and only enter tournament scores for handicap, but this is a bit of a lazy way out.  It makes handicap changes occur very slowly, often much slower than the player's advancement, so that he competes with an inflated handicap any time when his game is in an improvement mode.

We used to always have the Pro Staff enter tournament scores but we felt that, as a result, we had a very uninformed membership. A few years back we had some instruction sessions, some blast emails with relevant information on what to do, and have the player sign in to the Pro Shop that they were specifically playing in a tournament.

What a mess. It's been ridiculously inconsistent and unmanageable ever since. We will probably go back to putting it on the Golf Staff again.

Our Men's Club, with 250 members when the roster was full, allows individual entry for casual scores (the tournament committee enters tournament scores), but because the handicap committee is watchful, sandbagging is almost nonexistent.  When a suspicious trend appears, the member is contacted, and if the trend continues, his handicap is adjusted and frozen at tournament level until he gets the message.  We had a couple of players quit in a huff when they found out we wouldn't let them sandbag, and because of our zero tolerance policy, now days very few ever try.  Even though we play at a public course, the club members still see each other play week in and week out in casual play, we know each other's games, and it can be pretty obvious when someone tries to pad a score.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If they are doing that then the course should have a different rating and slope for that setup.  It isn't the players' fault if the course management doesn't know what they are doing.

My home course is the same general length and difficulty day in and day out.  The tee markers are always in the tee box that they are rated from, and in general if the tee is forward in the box, then the hole is cut back, and if the tee is back then the hole is cut toward the front of the green, keeping the course at approximately the same length all of the time.  I really don't think I've ever played a course that was set up with a significant difference just because it was the weekend.  Even for Men's Club tournaments, the course was only set up for tournament play for the club championship, and all that meant was that the lower flights played a few holes from the back tees instead of the usual middle tees.  First flight always played from the back tees, so that didn't change for them unless they played the white tees during the week, and if they did the course rating and slope were different so the handicap calculation for any of those rounds was made with different numbers.

Another alternative is to have some tees forward in the teeing area and then offset that by having some tees set towards the back of the teeing area.  Just as you want a mix of front, middle, and back pin positions.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Our Men's Club, with 250 members when the roster was full, allows individual entry for casual scores (the tournament committee enters tournament scores), but because the handicap committee is watchful, sandbagging is almost nonexistent.  When a suspicious trend appears, the member is contacted, and if the trend continues, his handicap is adjusted and frozen at tournament level until he gets the message.  We had a couple of players quit in a huff when they found out we wouldn't let them sandbag, and because of our zero tolerance policy, now days very few ever try.  Even though we play at a public course, the club members still see each other play week in and week out in casual play, we know each other's games, and it can be pretty obvious when someone tries to pad a score.

By "inconsistent and unmanageable" I meant the entry of tournament scores. We have monthly peer review by our handicap committee for everyday posting of scores. We know the guys who post lousy scores when they play with their wives so they can clean up on a Saturday morning match. Our hope was that the membership would understand the tournament score system but they didn't and they can't be trusted to post them. We have 355 active members and our Golf Staff is stressed enough, but they are going to have to start doing it again.

[ghalfaire]

I think a lot, maybe most, players play better during tournaments than just playing with the buddies during the week.  Probably not much better, but better, maybe a half stoke or so.  I admit however that there are sandbaggers in the world and there really are some who just play a lot better in tournaments and are not sandbaggers.

As to setup at my home course for tournaments, it isn't significantly different than non-tournament days.  Maybe the greens are freshly cut and rolled but that's about it.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by phan52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Our Men's Club, with 250 members when the roster was full, allows individual entry for casual scores (the tournament committee enters tournament scores), but because the handicap committee is watchful, sandbagging is almost nonexistent.  When a suspicious trend appears, the member is contacted, and if the trend continues, his handicap is adjusted and frozen at tournament level until he gets the message.  We had a couple of players quit in a huff when they found out we wouldn't let them sandbag, and because of our zero tolerance policy, now days very few ever try.  Even though we play at a public course, the club members still see each other play week in and week out in casual play, we know each other's games, and it can be pretty obvious when someone tries to pad a score.

By "inconsistent and unmanageable" I meant the entry of tournament scores. We have monthly peer review by our handicap committee for everyday posting of scores. We know the guys who post lousy scores when they play with their wives so they can clean up on a Saturday morning match. Our hope was that the membership would understand the tournament score system but they didn't and they can't be trusted to post them. We have 355 active members and our Golf Staff is stressed enough, but they are going to have to start doing it again.

The difference is in my club being on a public course.  We are limited to 250 members and 15 tournaments per year because we can't be allowed to hog the course - the public has to have ready access most days.  The golf course staff has nothing to do with our club.  They run the golf course, we manage the men's club ourselves.   It's our membership which keeps the course marked for play (painting lines for water hazards and GUR, etc.) The course has no "members', no playing membership cards or the like.  It is a public daily fee municipal course and we are organized as "The Men's Club at Foothills".  The only recognition we get from the course staff (aside from most of them being friends because we have played there so long) is in the scheduling for our tournament dates.  We organize and run our own tournaments, tally and post the results, and we then record scores and maintain USGA handicaps for our members through the Colorado Golf Association.