125 mph Swing Speed Driver Help!

[HackerUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Lihu

Good points.

I decided to look at quite a few swings on YouTube. I watched Rory (there's something wired different in this kid, because he's a golfing machine), Tiger, Ernie Els, Fred Couples, lots of Bubba Watson. Then a whole bunch of the long drivers.

Then I watched a whole bunch of videos of the normal pros hitting 105 to 110.

There is a significant difference in what you see, even on videos. The speed difference is like watching a car moving 60 and one traveling 80. It is relatively easy to see. in the case of a golf swing, the amount of shaft flex is very perceptible as well.

I think the issue of hitting 105 versus 127 as far as shafts go is moot assuming you buy the shaft for the 127 mph person. The video with Mark Crossfield seems to indicate why you need a particular shaft for high speed swingers. Yet, it can be used by a 100mph swinger as well.

My guess is that you have the right shaft to use at 100 as well as 125. So, there is no difference.

If you had bought a "stock shaft", maybe you could hit farther and higher? Maybe, when you have a well developed swing of 125 you would need to move up to the $500 shaft.

IMHO, from an engineering perspective, I do not understand why there are $500 shafts, other than marketing. Maybe they will make multiple element shafts in the future with nanotubes for $10,000, but does it make sense to get 25% more distance?

You should check out the LDA, they have many shafts and club heads for fast swingers. I looked at Jamie Sadlowski (5'10" 165 pounds) videos. He mentions that club heads only last a couple hundred drives or so. Impressive. He swings 150mph, and has the genetic disposition for speed.

I'm not sure if everyone thinks I have a stock shaft in those videos or what, but that is a club that was made specifically for me years ago.  Its a KZG 360cc with a 47"UST PROFORCE X stiff shaft, I haven't played much over the years, and just started getting into it more.  Now the head has a smashed surface to it, and my instructor said I needed a new one, and figured while I was at it I would look for a new shaft, and shorter one at that( looking for accuracy).  From my personal experience I've never been able to use a stock shaft found in box stores(R-S-X), they are always way to "whippy" feeling, and that's coming from my perspective, friends I was shopping with, salesmen at the stores, and club fitters. And when I have owned/used them, I will almost always snap the head off within a short amount of time.  I've always been told I need x to xx stiff shafts. I started this thread to just ask for advice, on whats a good shaft that's not too expensive.  I do know there is a huge feeling difference when I swing a club with the right shaft in it.  Thanks for the help

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by Lihu

If you had bought a "stock shaft", maybe you could hit farther and higher? Maybe, when you have a well developed swing of 125 you would need to move up to the $500 shaft.

IMHO, from an engineering perspective, I do not understand why there are $500 shafts, other than marketing. Maybe they will make multiple element shafts in the future with nanotubes for $10,000, but does it make sense to get 25% more distance?

The reason shaft companies charge so much is largely for profit and marketing, but also because they require a lot of research to improve and produce. But also remember there's really low demand for aftermarket shafts. Once a whiteboard or proforce v2 comes out, they don't get to just come out with the 2012 version like the head producers do. A shaft someone likes can be pulled from the 2011 club to the 2012 one if the user is so inclined, and they basically never wear out. Not even scratches or dings generally. Plus the shafts rarely depreciate much if they're still worth using. Try buying a whiteboard or some top performing, premium shaft from a couple years ago, they're still expensive; but the driver heads from the same year are available for a fraction of msrp.

You only have a small portion of the overall market that cares about aftermarket shafts, and you need steady income from those same few people switching out shafts regularly. So you need to either lay an almighty bilking on the equipment hos by charging 3-500$ for a shiny new model with a fresh coat of paint (ryder cup edition anyone?), or get enough performance increases to get people to switch. Which one is more expensive to try and do? And think about those poor buggers like the OP and myself with high SS, who can't really get usable performance out of stock shafts. Would the shaft companies let me have X flex shafts cheap out of pity? Or am I exactly where they want me? They need to get their profits somewhere. The cost of materials is going to be in perhaps the single digits of dollars in the end, but if only the top 1% of golfers have the SS to use this shaft and the vast majority are not going to bother switching, why invest in making a lot of them at all? There are many shafts that never even hit retail, because they are tour only and prototypes. It's not because they are made with orphaned unicorn tears, it's because the company feels they won't make a profit mass producing them. Maybe they cost too much to produce, maybe it's too small a niche for fitting, maybe it cannibalizes their current line that they invested in mass producing, or maybe they don't feel they have appeal to the masses. But the companies invest thousands to research and develop them, often at the behest of a single player. Good luck to the amateur who wants a custom shaft profile to fit his fast swing, he'll get no such luxury. At best, he'll be able to find something close to his profile at an affordable cost. Phil Mickelson, on the other hand, might be able to ask for and get that treatment.

There are so many more options for regular and stiff players it's not even funny, because that's what probably 90% of golfers play. It's carbon and resin, perhaps with some paint. You can't tell me those things cost 500$.

The majority of shafts though are under 150$ though, even driver shafts. If you're paying over that you're probably after a pretty exotic model or are paying for a certain feel.

And for what it's worth, I'd pay 10000$ for 25% more distance in a second if I played professionally, and if I could get that shaft before anyone else I'd head to the long drive tour and make it pay for itself. That's an absurd number even if you just threw it out there, you're talking 75+ yards for tour players. Even switching hickory to graphite didn't cover that much distance. Realize that the differences in shaft fitting are usually a matter of maybe 5 yards between several shafts that fit a candidate. If your shaft fits you poorly then you might see a decent gain, but in the end it's price, feel and dispersion that usually make the decision.

[Bonesaw]

Premium shafts cost more because of the RnD, materials, and the standard to which they are manufactured (Japan vs. China usually).  The last 1% in performance gains always cost more to attain/obtain than the first 99%.  A corvette z06 and a ferrari f430 both go 0-60 in~3.8 seconds and both have a top speed of ~200 mph.  The F430 costs 4 times as much but does not perform 4 times better.  Ferrari handles better, stops better, and is built far more like a race-car though while the z06 is built like a sports car.  Plus it is a Ferrari.  Thus the quadrupled  price tag.

Feel, dispersion, LA/spin (bend profile), torque, and yes the brand all affect price.  Brand is not just a name painted on, some brands have tighter tolerances.  I would be willing to bet that if you got 10 Ad Di 6s from graphite design and tested the CPM, weight, bend profile, torque etc they would be much closer to being the same than if you got a made for "insert OEM" shaft and tested 10 of them.

A small increase in performance might not be worth it if you are a 25 handicap but once you start getting around par it is harder and harder to shave strokes.  It is much, much easier to spend money and save a stroke every other round than to get up and down 1 more time every other round.

Also, I think a 10000$ shaft that gave a 25% distance increase would sell like hotcakes if it wasn't made illegal right away.  I would pay 10000 to go from 270 to 340.  The hard part would be affording the divorce afterwards.

[Gilly]

Originally Posted by Datsyuk

11 inches

^hahaha...that's awesome!

Ok...back on topic. Wasn't the OP's original question answered already? Why is everyone going down a path that has already been beaten to death on just about every golf forum out there?

[mdl]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Yes, I have.  And I don't believe anybody pretended they could tell within a very small margin for error

Okay, so you've spent time around good swingers, and you don't recognize that he's making some moves that can give you tons of power? Sure he could have convinced himself he's truly averaging a faster SS than he is, whether through self deception, internet self-promotion, or just ignoring that most monitors in stores are biased a little long to make customers feel good and want to purchase.  But the dismissive, so proud of yourself for calling out the guy you're so sure is an internet liar is just sad and seems obviously wrong.  Not wrong that he could have a significantly lower SS than 125, but wrong that it's just ridiculous and impossible that he is averaging that, or close to that.  That seems very obvious to me from his videos.

Whether he should be trying to average that SS given his current HC and mechanics, that's another question!

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by mdl

Okay, so you've spent time around good swingers, and you don't recognize that he's making some moves that can give you tons of power? Sure he could have convinced himself he's truly averaging a faster SS than he is, whether through self deception, internet self-promotion, or just ignoring that most monitors in stores are biased a little long to make customers feel good and want to purchase.  But the dismissive, so proud of yourself for calling out the guy you're so sure is an internet liar is just sad and seems obviously wrong.  Not wrong that he could have a significantly lower SS than 125, but wrong that it's just ridiculous and impossible that he is averaging that, or close to that.  That seems very obvious to me from his videos.

Whether he should be trying to average that SS given his current HC and mechanics, that's another question!

http://thesandtrap.com/t/62662/125-mph-swing-speed-driver-help/36#post_780222

Originally Posted by bplewis24

It's clear he can swing the club fast.  I have no idea how fast, though, and I doubt anybody here can really help with the original question without knowing specifics of his repeatable swing.  Best bet is to get fitted for a new shaft/driver.  That's what this thread (and its title) was for, right?

Right?

That was after a 2nd (updated?) video.  I saw a different video, with a slow, deliberate backswing before that which I don't believe was anywhere near 125mph based on the 125mph swings I've seen before.  And I don't believe he ever hit a 3w with a 290 carry for a hole-in-one (or does my memory fail me on the details of the carry?).  However, I do believe he could generate that range (115+) of club head speed with some consistency and instruction.

[ST ANDREWS GOLF]

Arguing this topic should be an instant ban

Answer the questions posed

The internet will one day break and it will be too many strangers arguing about someone elses swingspeed!

Seriously!

stop it

[mdl]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

http://thesandtrap.com/t/62662/125-mph-swing-speed-driver-help/36#post_780222

That was after a 2nd (updated?) video.  I saw a different video, with a slow, deliberate backswing before that which I don't believe was anywhere near 125mph based on the 125mph swings I've seen before.  And I don't believe he ever hit a 3w with a 290 carry for a hole-in-one (or does my memory fail me on the details of the carry?).  However, I do believe he could generate that range (115+) of club head speed with some consistency and instruction.

Ha.  Whoops.  I missed that earlier post.  Just saw the back and forth you were involved in that struck me as too much the standard TST trope of pissing on anyone who isn't a 5 or better claiming they can get carry+roll of more than 250 or a SS of at MOST 102 mph as a pathetic internet boaster.  But I stand corrected in accusing you of that.

I essentially agree with the above exactly.  I think he naturally can really whip the club through, and could very well be getting 125 mph SS right now, but he's way over doing it, and could more likely get in the 115+ range with a repeatable swing that could let him play to a decent HC.

[HackerUpNorth]

Originally Posted by mdl

Ha.  Whoops.  I missed that earlier post.  Just saw the back and forth you were involved in that struck me as too much the standard TST trope of pissing on anyone who isn't a 5 or better claiming they can get carry+roll of more than 250 or a SS of at MOST 102 mph as a pathetic internet boaster.  But I stand corrected in accusing you of that.

I essentially agree with the above exactly.  I think he naturally can really whip the club through, and could very well be getting 125 mph SS right now, but he's way over doing it, and could more likely get in the 115+ range with a repeatable swing that could let him play to a decent HC.

thats the helpful kind of information I've been looking for.  But its not as easy just slowing down, if I do that my dispersion goes way up.  I think its more of matter of getting in control, currently I'm working on narrowing my stance, shortening my backswing, and keeping my feet planted.  I'd rather hit 290 yards in the fairway, than 310 in the next fairway.  On another note, I did get a hole in one on a 313 yard par 4 with my 3 wood, that I later measured to 290 on google earth, accounting for the ball going straight at the stick.  My 3wood swing is amazingly calmer and easier for me to repoduce than my driver.

[Audaxi]

Originally Posted by HackerUpNorth

thats the helpful kind of information I've been looking for.  But its not as easy just slowing down, if I do that my dispersion goes way up.  I think its more of matter of getting in control, currently I'm working on narrowing my stance, shortening my backswing, and keeping my feet planted.  I'd rather hit 290 yards in the fairway, than 310 in the next fairway.  On another note, I did get a hole in one on a 313 yard par 4 with my 3 wood, that I later measured to 290 on google earth, accounting for the ball going straight at the stick.  My 3wood swing is amazingly calmer and easier for me to repoduce than my driver.

Then, by all means, keep on using the 3 wood. 290 yard drives are nice, and like you said here, you'd rather be 290 in the fairway than 310 in the next. Try leaving your driver at home for a few rounds, then let us know whether that turned out to be an improvement or if it was about the same as your other rounds.

[HackerUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Audaxi

Then, by all means, keep on using the 3 wood. 290 yard drives are nice, and like you said here, you'd rather be 290 in the fairway than 310 in the next. Try leaving your driver at home for a few rounds, then let us know whether that turned out to be an improvement or if it was about the same as your other rounds.

I have done that and shot two of my best rounds of the year, and for once never lost a ball!  Which is a huge confidence booster for me.  But I don't play proffesionally, so I don't always need the lowest score at that moment.  I'd rather become proffecient at all my clubs, and have a well rounded game.  Do you think it would be beneficial to not using driver on the course, but use it on the range, and when I feel comfortable with it on the range, then start introducing it into my game?

[Audaxi]

Originally Posted by HackerUpNorth

I have done that and shot two of my best rounds of the year, and for once never lost a ball!  Which is a huge confidence booster for me.  But I don't play proffesionally, so I don't always need the lowest score at that moment.  I'd rather become proffecient at all my clubs, and have a well rounded game.  Do you think it would be beneficial to not using driver on the course, but use it on the range, and when I feel comfortable with it on the range, then start introducing it into my game?

I would say that it would probably be the best thing you could do for yourself. As your swing starts to become patterned and more consistent, you will be able to swing the driver with more confidence and control. I played the first few years of golf without buying a driver, mainly because I had a set that came without it and I was cheap, but mostly because I could hardly hit the 3 wood for a while, so why step up from there? It seems like you just need to work on straightening out the driver before you'd feel good about using it on the course, so I would definitely recommend at least trying this and seeing how it goes for you. If, however, you feel like you still would like to hit the driver on the course anyways, at least think about whether or not you need to hit a driver. For example, if it's less than  a 400 yard par 4, why would you need a driver? With the distance you appear to hit, it would likely leave you with an awkward distance. On par 5's, where you can reach them in 2 with a solid drive, just weigh the risk against the reward, and remember that it's no fun having to go search for lost balls.

[Lihu]

I'm not sure if everyone thinks I have a stock shaft in those videos or what, but that is a club that was made specifically for me years ago.  Its a KZG 360cc with a 47"UST PROFORCE X stiff shaft, I haven't played much over the years, and just started getting into it more.  Now the head has a smashed surface to it, and my instructor said I needed a new one, and figured while I was at it I would look for a new shaft, and shorter one at that( looking for accuracy).  From my personal experience I've never been able to use a stock shaft found in box stores(R-S-X), they are always way to "whippy" feeling, and that's coming from my perspective, friends I was shopping with, salesmen at the stores, and club fitters. And when I have owned/used them, I will almost always snap the head off within a short amount of time.  I've always been told I need x to xx stiff shafts. I started this thread to just ask for advice, on whats a good shaft that's not too expensive.  I do know there is a huge feeling difference when I swing a club with the right shaft in it.  Thanks for the help

Don't get me wrong, you're fast. No question about that. Perhaps with some more training you can get to the 125 with a controlled swing.

[patrick]

Have to agree with Plasma327:  Fitting and buying appropriate stuff will help you enjoy the game more than anything else.  Worth the money.

When I first started, I went to the used bins, tried everything at a very low cost, probably at the total of a full bag of new stuff.

I found out thru experimentation that shaft & weight is probably more important than the head manufacturer.

Since long drives are your game strength, it’s a really good place to start your investment.

[Rip24]

Why is every talking about his driver configuration like that's the problem? The golf industry would love everyone to believe you can get fit and shave 10 strokes off over night. Yeah having the right set up helps but that's more fine tuning... And fitting don't mean anything unless you have a repeatable swing and hit it out the middle more often than not. If your 25+ hc it ain't the damn clubs... You don't need a fitter you need a teacher

[Highbeta]

I realize that the OP has likely resolved his driver issues by this point, but thought I would throw my own 2c in and bump an old thread, since it might be helpful to others reading this thread as a result of a Google Search (like me!).

*Puts flame suit on*

I am 6'3", 210lbs, played football, track, hockey etc etc growing up.

My driver swing speed hovers around 120mph, consistently. (I am not guessing).  Swinging at 100% puts me just north of  130mph but the results are very obviously erratic.

I don't think a 125mph swing speed is that "out of this world" although I would agree that anyone swinging close to 100% will have trouble being consistent. As another fellow mentioned, if you took a college baseball team out to the range, you would see a whole lot of people swinging 110+ and I'm sure the sluggers would have little trouble exceeding 120.

There are a lot of comments about slowing the swing down, scoring better etc. The OP came here for advice on a driver, not his score. People enjoy the game for different reasons and not everyone is fixated on score.

Personally, I played several seasons with only irons in my bag. Didn't seem like a big deal, a solid 3 iron put every par 4 into easy reach on my second.

I then picked up a 3 wood and rather enjoyed the boost in distance over the irons, particularly on par 5's; I played with only the 3w for about 3 seasons, again I never felt short of distance.

I eventually started looking for a driver merely for fun and as an ego boost. I hit several shafts on various demo days.. what I realized is that, for me, low torque was just as important as having a stiff shaft.

Two shafts that stood out were the Pro Force V2 75g in extra stiff (2.2 torque) and the Aldila RIP Alpha 70 in extra stiff (2.4 torque).

The V2 was the firmer of the two, lower torque etc, but it also felt too "boardy" to me.. a very wooden feeling contact. The ball flew well, but in terms of feel, the Aldila was the ticket for me. Very nice launch, nice feel and low torque for those slightly off centre hits that make the entire driver head wobble on lesser shafts.

I would recommend going to a demo day and then trying to find something on ebay if you are strapped for cash.. I picked my driver up hardly used, with my preferred shaft and saved about 50% over new prices. I have a bit of a sickness with always needing to find a deal :)

Cheers!

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Highbeta

I don't think a 125mph swing speed is that "out of this world"

It may not be "out of this world", but simply in the stratosphere with the likes of Dustin Johnson and Tiger Woods.  So, not too shabby.