2013 Masters Discussion Thread, Update with Tiger's Illegal Drop (Post #343)

[atb5079]

Originally Posted by trh98

Isn't golf a little different? You call infractions on yourself.

On a side note, I'm not a Tiger fan at all but even I'm getting tired of Chamblee. Has he always hated Tiger? Is there something Tiger did to him in the past?

I really dont know. And I use to like Chamblee but its getting absurd.

[BallStriker]

In other news, Luke Donald posted a picture of the pin sheet on his FB page - crazy pins out there today, everything tucked

[onephenom]

Frank Nobilo made a great point. They reviewed before tiger signed, and found no infraction. So, signing the scorecard incorrectly isn't supposed to come into play, and the two stroke penalty makes sense. As to whether tiger should WD because of ignorance/disregard for the rules... idk

[atb5079]

Here's another thought, albeit a dumb one but just curious. Why did TW ask Freddie for a ruling? I just dont get why players do that? It clearly means nothing. Tiger made his drop, he asked Freddie if it was ok and Freddie said yes. Freddie is a friend and coworker essentially; not an official. Why was there not an official there when he made the drop. That is not TW's fault. That is on Augusta.

[eich41]

Originally Posted by atb5079

This is what they were just ****ing talking about on GC! And this is from the letter Todd Lewis read. Are you that ****ing blind?

I was asking where you had received this info.  But thanks for being classy.

Also I read the letter.  NOWHERE DOES IT STATE THAT THE RULES INFRACTION CAME UP IN DISCUSSION WITH TIGER PRIOR TO HIM SIGNING HIS CARD.

You seem to be reading between the lines.  It simply states that a viewer brought up the situation, the committee reviewed it and determined that there was no infraction.  Then after the interview (post scorecard signing) they reviewed again and determined there was an infraction.

Why I asked the question in my initial post is because the onus is on the PLAYER to ensure his scorecard is correct.  It's not up to the viewers, it's not up the rule committee.  Nowhere have I seen any indication that Tiger brought it up to the rules committee and was told he was okay prior to signing his card.  If he did do that, then the penalty is the correct call.  However, just because it was brought to the committee's attention and they determined it to be okay doesn't mean that Tiger is in the clear if he never brought it up himself.  Again the onus is on the player to ensure their scorecard is correct, not the rules committee or anyone else.

That's the key to this whole thing.

Now I'll just go back to being ****ing blind I guess...

[atb5079]

Originally Posted by onephenom

Frank Nobilo made a great point. They reviewed before tiger signed, and found no infraction. So, signing the scorecard incorrectly isn't supposed to come into play, and the two stroke penalty makes sense.

As to whether tiger should WD because of ignorance/disregard for the rules... idk

Exactly what I have said all along.

If you make a mistake at work, but at a quarterly review, your boss looks over everything and says, you did a great job, no mistakes. Then the next quarter your boss comes back to you and says, ya know, you actually messed up there. You think your boss is gonna fire you? I dont think so.

[trh98]

Did the GC not post the correct statement a few minutes ago? It said nothing about the committee talking to Tiger before he finished his round. It just said they made a decision after reviewing the tape, nothing about speaking with Tiger. Maybe I'm not seeing the same statement as everyone else.

[atb5079]

TW needs to be responsible for his actions, which is why I am fine with the penalty. If they never notified him, and he signed it, he should be DQed. But the fact that they told him before he signed it all was ok; that is not TW's fault.

[The Recreational Golfer]

I was napping, unfortunately, when this shot occurred, so I didn't see how his ball went in the water, but if he didn't drop the ball on the line between the pin and the point of entry, then he is in clear violation of a rule that golf that every competitor should know. This is not an arcane rule. It's one of the most basic. He should do the honorable thing and disqualify himself if the Committee doesn't. If Brian Davis can do it, so can Tiger. No way Rule 33-7 applies. No ****ing way.

[eich41]

Originally Posted by atb5079

Here's another thought, albeit a dumb one but just curious. Why did TW ask Freddie for a ruling? I just dont get why players do that? It clearly means nothing. Tiger made his drop, he asked Freddie if it was ok and Freddie said yes. Freddie is a friend and coworker essentially; not an official. Why was there not an official there when he made the drop. That is not TW's fault. That is on Augusta.

There is always a rules official available if you request one.  Tiger didn't request one, that is on Tiger.

[allin]

Ok, clear rules violation. I think Tiger because he was angry failed to think clearly. Officials reviewed, found no violation initially, based on post round statements realized 2 shot penalty applied. It really comes down whether this was discussed with Tiger before he signed. If it was then decision was revisited later 2 shots is correct. If there was no discussion and committee response was based on post round comments then it was his responsibility and he should dq himself.

[onephenom]

Since when would a rules committee ask a player? If you get asked something like that, clearly you made a mistake so lie to fix it. Not saying tiger would do it, but it would be a pretty easy way around the rule.

[eich41]

Originally Posted by trh98

Did the GC not post the correct statement a few minutes ago? It said nothing about the committee talking to Tiger before he finished his round. It just said they made a decision after reviewing the tape, nothing about speaking with Tiger. Maybe I'm not seeing the same statement as everyone else.

Are you ****ing blind??? Can you not ****ing read????

Don't bother telling some of these people that the official statement actually says that the rules committee reviewed it initially WHILE TIGER WAS STILL PLAYING.

[trh98]

Ok, clear rules violation. I think Tiger because he was angry failed to think clearly. Officials reviewed, found no violation initially, based on post round statements realized 2 shot penalty applied. It really comes down whether this was discussed with Tiger before he signed. If it was then decision was revisited later 2 shots is correct. If there was no discussion and committee response was based on post round comments then it was his responsibility and he should dq himself.

I agree.

[trh98]

Are you ****ing blind??? Can you not ****ing read???? ;-)

Apparently, we both are.

[eich41]

Official Statement for Reference:

"Yesterday afternoon, the Rules Committee was made aware of a possible Rules violation that involved a drop by Tiger Woods on the 15th hole.

"In preparation for his fifth shot, the player dropped his ball in close proximity to where he had played his third shot in apparent conformance with Rule 26. After being prompted by a television viewer, the Rules Committee reviewed a video of the shot while he was playing the 18th hole. At that moment and based on that evidence, the Committee determined he had complied with the Rules.

"After he signed his scorecard, and in a television interview subsequent to the round, the player stated that he played further from the point than where he had played his third shot. Such action would constitute playing from the wrong place.

"The subsequent information provided by the player's interview after he had completed play warranted further review and discussion with him this morning. After meeting with the player, it was determined that he had violated Rule 26, and he was assessed a two stroke penalty. The penalty of disqualification was waived by the Committee under Rule 33 as the Committee had previously reviewed the information and made its initial determination prior to the finish of the player's round."

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2013/04/13/5339165/augusta-national-statement-on.html#storylink=cpy

[rehmwa]

two things will come from this

1 - players won't do post game interviews (they shouldn't either - and they shouldn't be bad mouthed if they start taking that stance - they all should)

2 - like any other activity, we make the 'refs' responsible for enforcing the rules, not spectators, not bored TV watcher, not the players or the caddies - players should know the rules, but infractions should be called by the officials.

Two simple rules should be added

1 - people watching TV should be ignored, spectators should be ignored.  The rules officials should do their jobs.

2 - If a meet judge approves a move or makes a decision - independently or at the request of a player, then that should override.  A player can still DQ themselves after the fact if the ref screws up, but it's not required.  It's not their responsibility.

seriously, shouldn't players be able to trust that a meet official knows what's going on?

as for the rest of this tournament - it's up to Tiger to disqual himself if wants.  I think once he asked the other player, and the official, he did his due diligence

- the two stroke penalty is interesting, and should be added until rules get fixed

- HD TV should then be taken 100% of the time on 100% of the players and then provided to any anal rules spectator that asks for it - scores can't be posted live until everyone in the country gets to sign off - until the rules get fixed

In any other game, any spectator actively 2nd guessing the refs would be ejected from the center.......hell, this guy will likely get an interview on Golf Channel because they don't have anything better to show.

Tiger and his caddie should study up in the meantime, this is twice now this year?  Both times they asked the official if they were ok.  Both times the official said yes.  Hell, he should just ask the gallery if it's ok.

[Golfingdad]

Here's another thought, albeit a dumb one but just curious. Why did TW ask Freddie for a ruling? I just dont get why players do that? It clearly means nothing. Tiger made his drop, he asked Freddie if it was ok and Freddie said yes. Freddie is a friend and coworker essentially; not an official. Why was there not an official there when he made the drop. That is not TW's fault. That is on Augusta.

Freddie who? Couples? That makes no sense ... Tiger was playing with Scott piercy and Luke Donald.