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deronsizemore

Titleist SureFit Chart Explanation

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So it seems there's two different SureFit charts floating around:

http://i.imgur.com/QlUpT5v.jpg and http://i.imgur.com/DY34Url.jpg

The first doesn't have the "face angle" on the right side like the second does.

With the first chart, it appears that if you go from A1 to A4, that you're adding 1.5 degrees of loft and the face angle stays the same. With the second chart, going from A1 to A4, you get an extra 1.5 degrees of loft and it closes the face 1.5 degrees as well.

I guess my question is: How can you add loft and close the face at the same time. Seems odd to me. Anyone want to explain?

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It changes both because there are two different settings. I am not sure what one does what but either the letters or the numbers change the loft and the other one changes the face angle. Use http://www.titleist.com/golf-clubs/913-performance-guide/ .

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Here's one answer.
In terms of independent adjustability, Titleist clubs provide independent loft and lie adjustment. If you hold a Titleist club with the SureFit Tour hosel in the air so that it is not soled and you adjust for loft, the only adjustment made is in the loft plane. Same thing for lie: only change is in the lie plane. So they are independent.
Titleist clubs with SureFit Tour hosel do not adjust loft by changing face angle. In fact it is the opposite. They are adjustable in the loft plane and because when adjusting loft the sole plate changes as well (because obviously they are connected), so the ground contact point changes, which can then change face angle if the club is soled. If you never sole the club the face angle does not change. That's why Titleist does not claim independence with face angle: because sometimes the player soles the club.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Here's one answer.

In terms of independent adjustability, Titleist clubs provide independent loft and lie adjustment. If you hold a Titleist club with the SureFit Tour hosel in the air so that it is not soled and you adjust for loft, the only adjustment made is in the loft plane. Same thing for lie: only change is in the lie plane. So they are independent.

Titleist clubs with SureFit Tour hosel do not adjust loft by changing face angle. In fact it is the opposite. They are adjustable in the loft plane and because when adjusting loft the sole plate changes as well (because obviously they are connected), so the ground contact point changes, which can then change face angle if the club is soled. If you never sole the club the face angle does not change. That's why Titleist does not claim independence with face angle: because sometimes the player soles the club.


Thanks, Erik. I'm still not sure I follow, though. So you can change the loft without changing the lie, but you can't change the loft without changing the face angle? Is that correct?

If so, why does adding more loft equal a more closed clubface? Just seems to counter what you'd think would happen.

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Originally Posted by deronsizemore

If so, why does adding more loft equal a more closed clubface? Just seems to counter what you'd think would happen.

Because, when open the clubface, to square it up you close it and that takes loft off.

So imagine this: you have a club with 9° loft. You close the face 2° but keep it at 9° loft - you just turn the face. Now when you square it up you'll open the face (it rotates about the shaft axis instead of a vertical axis like the face changes) and thus add loft - say 10°.

That's not what Titleist is saying they do, but in the end, they require you to hover the club for what they say to be accurate due to the way the sole sits on the ground.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Because, when open the clubface, to square it up you close it and that takes loft off.

So imagine this: you have a club with 9° loft. You close the face 2° but keep it at 9° loft - you just turn the face. Now when you square it up you'll open the face (it rotates about the shaft axis instead of a vertical axis like the face changes) and thus add loft - say 10°.

That's not what Titleist is saying they do, but in the end, they require you to hover the club for what they say to be accurate due to the way the sole sits on the ground.

I guess I'm too stupid to grasp this. When you say "close the face 2°," do you mean with the SureFit tool, or just turning the club in my hands?

If you don't change the loft and keep it at 9° but you're closing the face 2° by just turning the face closed and then you square it back up, wouldn't that just put you back at the same loft you started with?

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Originally Posted by deronsizemore

I guess I'm too stupid to grasp this. When you say "close the face 2°," do you mean with the SureFit tool, or just turning the club in my hands?

If you don't change the loft and keep it at 9° but you're closing the face 2° by just turning the face closed and then you square it back up, wouldn't that just put you back at the same loft you started with?

You might be ... but so am I. :)  I asked a similar question about the Taylormade drivers several months back: http://thesandtrap.com/t/56112/tunable-drivers-with-adjustable-face-angle-huh/0_30

I point my driver at my target so I could not grasp how twisting a little knobby on the bottom of it would do anything for me.  (Answer: it wouldn't)

But for the Titleist, I kind of think the same as you.  If I put the tool in and switch it from 9 to 11, and that also opens the club face, then when I line up the club face, I'm squaring it up myself so that would put it back at 9.

I'm just going to trust that they know what their doing and not ask questions, because obviously, when I'm given answers, it doesn't help. :)

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Originally Posted by Golfingdad

You might be ... but so am I. :)  I asked a similar question about the Taylormade drivers several months back: http://thesandtrap.com/t/56112/tunable-drivers-with-adjustable-face-angle-huh/0_30

I point my driver at my target so I could not grasp how twisting a little knobby on the bottom of it would do anything for me.  (Answer: it wouldn't)

But for the Titleist, I kind of think the same as you.  If I put the tool in and switch it from 9 to 11, and that also opens the club face, then when I line up the club face, I'm squaring it up myself so that would put it back at 9.

I'm just going to trust that they know what their doing and not ask questions, because obviously, when I'm given answers, it doesn't help. :)

Yeah. For me, it doesn't really matter besides being just curious about how it works.

I leave mine on standard and never change it. Only wanted the SureFit head so I could try different shafts and change heads down the road if needed.

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Originally Posted by deronsizemore

Yeah. For me, it doesn't really matter besides being just curious about how it works.

I leave mine on standard and never change it. Only wanted the SureFit head so I could try different shafts and change heads down the road if needed.

Yeah, I'm curious too ... but my head is exploding at the thought just as your is.

I certainly didn't mind changing mine, but I just stopped trying to think about it, and instead am going to trust that it will do what they say it will do. Of course, we know that's a lie because they say it will go longer and straighter than the last one, and that never happens!

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The 910 user guide has a good explanation for this ... pasting from page 4

Here is the link you can get the doc from (http://www.golfweb.lt/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Titleist-910-user-guide.pdf)

Notes on face angle
  • Golfers will react differently to changes in face angle.
  • Some will square the face at impact and alter the loft.

-The head will have more loft when squared at impact if you start with a closed face angle.

-The head will have less loft when squared at impact if you start with an open face angle.
  • Some will maintain the club's static face angle and the resulting change in face angle will
affect direction.
-A closed face angle will result in left ball flight.
-An open face angle will result in right ball flight.
  • Some golfers will make a combination of these adjustments.
  • The golfer's ability to consistently return the club face at impact has a greater effect on
directional control than the face angle setting.
  • Ultimately, the golfer's ball flight will be your best source of
guidance regarding performance.

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Originally Posted by deronsizemore

I guess I'm too stupid to grasp this. When you say "close the face 2°," do you mean with the SureFit tool, or just turning the club in my hands?

If you don't change the loft and keep it at 9° but you're closing the face 2° by just turning the face closed and then you square it back up, wouldn't that just put you back at the same loft you started with?

He means using the tool. If you are holding the club at address, the tool basically allows you to rotate the face horizontally. If you turn the club in your hands you're rotating the face on a diagonal plane because the shaft is on an angle.

Take it to the extreme, you're at address and someone comes along and opens the clubface 10 degrees (without you moving your hands or twisting the shaft). The loft on the face is still the same 10 degrees it was before the adjustment, just the face is now open. So if you now twist the club in your hands to square up the face again, you're going to be reducing the loft as you do it. Hence why for people who square up the face using their hands after making an adjustment, opening the clubface will cause them to reduce loft and closing the clubface will cause them to add loft.

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Originally Posted by Mordan

He means using the tool. If you are holding the club at address, the tool basically allows you to rotate the face horizontally. If you turn the club in your hands you're rotating the face on a diagonal plane because the shaft is on an angle.

Take it to the extreme, you're at address and someone comes along and opens the clubface 10 degrees (without you moving your hands or twisting the shaft). The loft on the face is still the same 10 degrees it was before the adjustment, just the face is now open. So if you now twist the club in your hands to square up the face again, you're going to be reducing the loft as you do it. Hence why for people who square up the face using their hands after making an adjustment, opening the clubface will cause them to reduce loft and closing the clubface will cause them to add loft.

Not sure about Deron, but that doesn't help me.  The butt end of the shaft is on the same plane as the rest of it, so tool or not, how are you rotating it any direction other than on said diagonal plane of the shaft?

It can only be something to do with assymetry of the shaft tip, right?  Because otherwise, that head is spinning on the same angle if you rotate it around the end of the shaft or if you rotate it and the shaft in my hand.  It wouldn't make a difference.

I guess the part that is hard for me (us?) to understand is how the tiny variations in that shaft tip can actually allow the horizontal movement.  (Which is why I am a civil engineer, not a mechanical engineer ... I don't like it when stuff moves!)

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Originally Posted by Golfingdad

It can only be something to do with assymetry of the shaft tip, right?  Because otherwise, that head is spinning on the same angle if you rotate it around the end of the shaft or if you rotate it and the shaft in my hand.  It wouldn't make a difference.

I guess the part that is hard for me (us?) to understand is how the tiny variations in that shaft tip can actually allow the horizontal movement.  (Which is why I am a civil engineer, not a mechanical engineer ... I don't like it when stuff moves!)

That's exactly what's happening.

I'll exaggerate:

There would be no point if the hosel simply rotated around the same axis as the shaft. The teeth are angled slightly (a few degrees is all you need) to change the angles at which they "lock" together.

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Originally Posted by Mordan

He means using the tool. If you are holding the club at address, the tool basically allows you to rotate the face horizontally. If you turn the club in your hands you're rotating the face on a diagonal plane because the shaft is on an angle.

Take it to the extreme, you're at address and someone comes along and opens the clubface 10 degrees (without you moving your hands or twisting the shaft). The loft on the face is still the same 10 degrees it was before the adjustment, just the face is now open. So if you now twist the club in your hands to square up the face again, you're going to be reducing the loft as you do it. Hence why for people who square up the face using their hands after making an adjustment, opening the clubface will cause them to reduce loft and closing the clubface will cause them to add loft.

Thanks. I think that make sense. So for example, on the fitting chart, if I were to go from A1 to A4, I'm closing the face 1.5 degrees with the tool. So then, if were to take the club and square it up with my hands by rolling the face open a little, that's equating to a loft change of +1.5. But this only applies when actually rolling the face one way or the other after adjustment, correct? If I have an 8.5° driver and  I adjust it from A1 to A4, it's closing the face 1.5 degrees. If I then don't re-open the face and square it back up, then it's still 8.5°. Only when I roll the face a little to square it will it have the additional 1.5° of loft?

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