slope comparison

[Hacker James]

Recently,. I started maintaining a handicap utilizing the correct formula, course index, slope rating. The last course I played (Castle Creek in North San Diego County) has an index of 68.3 and slope 121 compared with the course I used to play more often (MCAS Miramar Memorial) which has index/slope of 70.0/120.  The Castle Creek course appears to have a lot more difficult topography with large canyons, lateral water hazards, lakes , very narrow fairways lined with trees and/or houses, yet for some reason or other I seem to play a lot better than I do at Miramar. Of course, the course at Miramar is also quite a bit longer measuring 6411 yards from the whites, while Castle Creek measures 5939. I usually hit the par 3's in regulation at Castle, and seldom at Miramar. Also Miramar is completely flat which has a lot to do with it I am sure. Hitting from an elevated tee down to a green 160 yards is a lot easier (for me) than a flat tee to green layout of the same yardage.

My second theory is that the Castle Creek course is more or less uncharted waters for me and I am automatically a little more careful than I am at Miramar.  or  maybe I am missing something?

Believe it or not, at Castle Creek, there is a par 3 equipped with a shot camera whereby you can pay a $5.00 fee for a chance of winning $5,000 for an ace.  I am tempted to try it!  I have hit pin high the last two times I played. (birdied both).

[bkuehn1952]

Course rating is an inexact process.  Also, the rating and slope are developed for the "average" scratch and bogey golfer.  Since all our games are unique, many times the ratings are at odds with our typical results.

[Chilli Dipper]

The slope rating reflects how much worse a "bogey" golfer would score in comparison to a "scratch" golfer. Course A may have more hazards, out-of-bounds, and severe elevation in play than Course B, but at only 5900 yards, the scratch player will be hitting shorter clubs for most of his shots, thus having a smaller range of mis-hits and generally taking much of the danger out of play. The scratch player could expect to shoot a 68 or 69 with a good round, but a bogey golfer is going to have a much harder time.

Course B, on the other hand, may be longer on the scorecard, but its more wide-open layout and fewer bunkers and water hazards for players to find trouble means it won't be as difficult for a mid-to-high handicap player as Course A. So while the scratch player may only shoot 70 on a good day because he's hitting longer clubs into greens, the bogey golfer may beat his score from Course A by a stroke or two, because he won't be penalized for hitting bad shots into hazards or out of play.

[Hacker James]

I understand that, but in this case it would seem the opposite to be true as I fare better on the course with more hazards. I suppose a lot has to do with how each hole presents itself asthetically.  The wide open course doesn't offer as many "targets" so to speak or something definite to aim at. Or maybe it is only a fluke. Also the greens are better maintained on the more difficult course, the bunkers have a better quality of sand being courser, darker, damper than the dried out, fluffy ones at Miramar. The differences in handicap index also confuses me, 68.3 compared to 70.o yet the former has a higher slope rating at 121 vs 120.  All I know is, I hit more greens on course A. Thanks for the insight, it is interesting.

[Chilli Dipper]

Originally Posted by Hacker James

I understand that, but in this case it would seem the opposite to be true as I fare better on the course with more hazards. I suppose a lot has to do with how each hole presents itself asthetically.  The wide open course doesn't offer as many "targets" so to speak or something definite to aim at. Or maybe it is only a fluke. Also the greens are better maintained on the more difficult course, the bunkers have a better quality of sand being courser, darker, damper than the dried out, fluffy ones at Miramar. The differences in handicap index also confuses me, 68.3 compared to 70.o yet the former has a higher slope rating at 121 vs 120.  All I know is, I hit more greens on course A. Thanks for the insight, it is interesting.

I'm looking at the websites of the courses you mentioned, and I should point out that the white tees don't appear to be one and the same at both courses. The back tees at Castle Creek are designated black, and measure 6688 yards; the back tees at Miramar are designated blue, and measure 6818 yards. Castle Creek also has two sets of tees that play further forward than Miramar's forward tees ("Red," 5898).

In this instance, it appears that Castle Creek's black-blue-white tees are equivalent to Miramar's blue-white-red tees. At your next round, you should play Castle Creek's blue tees (6372 / 70.6 / 129) for a truer comparison to Miramar's white tees, or the latter's red tees for a truer comparison to the former's white tees. Then see if you still shoot lower at the "more difficult" course.

[Hacker James]

Castle creek has 5 tees, black, blue, white, red, and green.

6688,6372,5939,5396,4706

Miramar has only 3

Blue, white, red

6818,6411,5898

I played from the whites on both where I noticed the majority of players do. But, I agree your suggestion has merit and might level the playing field.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Hacker James

Recently,. I started maintaining a handicap utilizing the correct formula, course index, slope rating. The last course I played (Castle Creek in North San Diego County) has an index of 68.3 and slope 121 compared with the course I used to play more often (MCAS Miramar Memorial) which has index/slope of 70.0/120.  The Castle Creek course appears to have a lot more difficult topography with large canyons, lateral water hazards, lakes , very narrow fairways lined with trees and/or houses, yet for some reason or other I seem to play a lot better than I do at Miramar. Of course, the course at Miramar is also quite a bit longer measuring 6411 yards from the whites, while Castle Creek measures 5939. I usually hit the par 3's in regulation at Castle, and seldom at Miramar. Also Miramar is completely flat which has a lot to do with it I am sure. Hitting from an elevated tee down to a green 160 yards is a lot easier (for me) than a flat tee to green layout of the same yardage.

My second theory is that the Castle Creek course is more or less uncharted waters for me and I am automatically a little more careful than I am at Miramar.  or  maybe I am missing something?

Believe it or not, at Castle Creek, there is a par 3 equipped with a shot camera whereby you can pay a $5.00 fee for a chance of winning $5,000 for an ace.  I am tempted to try it!  I have hit pin high the last two times I played. (birdied both).

Actually it's normal that the longer course would have the higher rating (in your comparison, 68.3 to 70.0) because course rating is based almost exclusively on length.  The course rating is the theoretical average score that a scratch golfer should shoot there.  The slope is more a factor of the difficulty that a bogey golfer would have negotiating the course (the baseline multiplier for slope is 113), and length also factors into that, along with hazards, bunkers, rough, etc.  The relative rating between those two course sounds about right based on your description.