Lipping out Putts

[iacas]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

A putting average of 1.88, or 1.5 DOES mean something: it shows that you do have "some" putting abilities, or your averages (talking about a beginner here!) would be much higher, no matter how good or bad the rest of your game is.

No it doesn't. Who is the better putter: the guy who averages 1.5 from an average distance of three feet, or the guy who averages 1.88 from an average distance of 40 feet?

[Ernest Jones]

By reasoning that way, you can prove whatever you want, even completely opposite things! A putting average of 1.88, or 1.5 DOES mean something: it shows that you do have "some" putting abilities, or your averages (talking about a beginner here!) would be much higher, no matter how good or bad the rest of your game is. NEEDING to putt better than 1.88/hole in order to get a good final result, because the rest of your game sucked, does not mean that the average of 1.88 putts/hole is meaningless. When the majority of your first putts come from outside 15 feet, that means your approach sucks off course and to get a decent final result you would need to putt better than 1.88/hole, but that doesn't mean the result of 1.88/hole in itself is meaningless or bad, especially when you're a beginner and +70% of your first putts had to be made from outside 15 feet.

It seems you only like advice when it's what you want to hear. That's kinda pointless, why not just write your own advice? Generally speaking, when the rest of your game is crap, you'll see better putting. This is because, again in general, the shot that FINALLY puts you in position to putt is often just off the green. When I have a good day with my irons my putting stats will suffer a bit because I'm hitting greens from farther away, leaving myself more difficult putts. When my irons are crap I generally have better putting stats because my so called approach shot is from wherever my miss left me. But you won't like that answer so let's try this one: Piper, you are an amazing putter! 1.88 for a beginner is out if this world good. Now just tighten up your iron game and you'll be scratch. Don't listen to all these other, highly experienced, players, they just want to bring you down because they feel threatened by the fact that you have clearly figured out the SECRET. Betcha that second version of advice really floated your boat eh? Settle in for the long haul Piper, there ain't no shortcut.

[MacDutch]

Can't tell. Depends on the average brake and speed of the green. Maybe the first player plays allways in the morning on Marion-like greens when greens are drying up and therefor a lot more difficult to adept to the changeing speed. But I think I am proving your point :-)

[saevel25]

I would say if you want to look at how good of a putter your are. Don't look at any putts inside of 3'. There isn't much disparity in that putting range between people.

Unless you suck at 3' putts

[Fourputt]

Here's my take on the topic as it applies to me.  I consider myself to be a fairly good putter, not because I drain a lot of 25 footers, but because I rarely three putt and because I'm usually pretty good from 6 feet in.  I average something under 30 putts per 18 holes, but I also miss a lot of greens, and when I'm in form I chip within that 6 foot range that I like.  Unfortunately, too many of those 1 putts are for bogey or double bogey because my tee to green game is inconsistent.  My short game is the only reason I ever carried a 10 handicap, and it's why my handicap is now around 13.  Anyone watching me off the tee would figure bogey golfer, easy.

The good part of the story is that my putts per GIR are right around 36, which means that I make birdie putts just about as often as I three putt.  So I'm not a great putter, but I'm competent with the flatstick, and I rarely face a putt that really gets my knees knocking.

[pipergsm]

Originally Posted by iacas

No it doesn't. Who is the better putter: the guy who averages 1.5 from an average distance of three feet, or the guy who averages 1.88 from an average distance of 40 feet?

Easy, 1.88 from an average distance of 40 feet, there is your meaning.

[pipergsm]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

It seems you only like advice when it's what you want to hear. That's kinda pointless, why not just write your own advice?

Generally speaking, when the rest of your game is crap, you'll see better putting. This is because, again in general, the shot that FINALLY puts you in position to putt is often just off the green. When I have a good day with my irons my putting stats will suffer a bit because I'm hitting greens from farther away, leaving myself more difficult putts. When my irons are crap I generally have better putting stats because my so called approach shot is from wherever my miss left me.

But you won't like that answer so let's try this one:

Piper, you are an amazing putter! 1.88 for a beginner is out if this world good. Now just tighten up your iron game and you'll be scratch. Don't listen to all these other, highly experienced, players, they just want to bring you down because they feel threatened by the fact that you have clearly figured out the SECRET.

Betcha that second version of advice really floated your boat eh?

Settle in for the long haul Piper, there ain't no shortcut.

This is definitely not the case. I just don't agree with it (I do believe I have that right!).

When the rest of my game is crap, my putting does not get better because of "shorter distances to the hole".

When I really manage to get shorter distances to the hole, I putt around 14 per round of 9 holes, not the average of 17.

The average of 17 is shot when my average distance to the hole (upon landing on the green) is more like 20 feet.

Like today, I had another crappy round where both my irons and chipping were bad, and my shortest distance to the hole was 15 feet (up to 35).

I putted 18 (9 holes).

Save the sarcasm about me thinking I'm an amazing putter: I don't think that and never said so!

But for a beginner, I'm certainly not a bad putter.

[saevel25]

Just to have some fun, Assume all putts die into the hole, to maximize the amount of putts made (no lip outs)

At 3' you get a +/- of 3.37° of clubface error (open/closed), and still make the putt

At 5' you get a +/- of 2.03

At 10' you get a +/- 1.01°

At 20' you get +/- 0.5°

At 40' you get +/- 0.25°

this is also assuming you know the exact line, and the exact speed. Lets just assume a straight putt, flat green. Its simple trig math

For me, i would say a good putter is the number of 1 putts outside of 10'. Because this means you have to have the read, the speed, and a solid putting stroke that doesn't have error in how the clubface hits the putter.

[pipergsm]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Just to have some fun, Assume all putts die into the hole, to maximize the amount of putts made (no lip outs)

At 3' you get a +/- of 3.37° of clubface error (open/closed), and still make the putt

At 5' you get a +/- of 2.03

At 10' you get a +/- 1.01°

At 20' you get +/- 0.5°

At 40' you get +/- 0.25°

this is also assuming you know the exact line, and the exact speed. Lets just assume a straight putt, flat green. Its simple trig math

For me, i would say a good putter is the number of 1 putts outside of 10'. Because this means you have to have the read, the speed, and a solid putting stroke that doesn't have error in how the clubface hits the putter.

That would indeed be a good putter, but certainly no beginner!

I don't see many "beginners" putting from outside 10 feet on a regular base (let's say 40% ??), unless it's on a perfectly flat green or mat, and my local course doesn't have many of those.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

That would indeed be a good putter, but certainly no beginner!

I don't see many "beginners" putting from outside 10 feet on a regular base (let's say 40% ??), unless it's on a perfectly flat green or mat, and my local course doesn't have many of those.

What do you mean by that. Beginners, if playing golf on the course would have the longest putts by far, because there whole game sucks. I would say if you assume as in beginner not hitting greens, but some sort of decent short game, then yes i could say they would be putting inside of 10'. If you mean on the practice green, i have no clue the practice rituals of a beginning golfer.

[pipergsm]

Originally Posted by saevel25

What do you mean by that. Beginners, if playing golf on the course would have the longest putts by far, because there whole game sucks. I would say if you assume as in beginner not hitting greens, but some sort of decent short game, then yes i could say they would be putting inside of 10'. If you mean on the practice green, i have no clue the practice rituals of a beginning golfer.

I mean that, when a beginner has to play his first put from +10 feet, he/she will not make that first putt very often, maybe 1/10 or something like that, unless the green is perfectly flat (which doesn't happen often either).

IMO, holing putts from +10 feet on a regular base (40% or more) on greens that aren't perfectly flat, means you're definitely no beginner!

[saevel25]

Ah makes more sense now, i agree.

But your not going to find many people holing from 10' or more that regularly. If you say just from 10', 40% is a pretty decent number of putts made. If you say 10 feet and greater, that's a lot of different lengths, your looking at maybe 15-20% being very good.

[pipergsm]

Indeed, and since most of my first putts are played from much farther than 10 feet (it's closer to 20 feet!), that's why I said averaging 17 putts on 9 holes under these circumstances isn't bad at all for a beginner, but some people disagree with that!

[pipergsm]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

Indeed, and since most of my first putts are played from much farther than 10 feet (it's closer to 20 feet!), that's why I said averaging 17 putts on 9 holes under these circumstances isn't bad at all for a beginner, but some people disagree with that!

they seem to think I average 17 putts, no matter the distance, but that's not what I said!

When I have a reasonable number of first putts from within 9 feet, I'll rather have 14 putts on 9 holes.

[iacas]

Pipergasm, dude, multi-quote. Enough with the back-to-back posts responding to different things. Multi-quote and combine them.

And your answer to the 1.88 versus 1.5 question I posed makes my point quite nicely. Total putts is a terrible metric to gauge putting ability.

[pipergsm]

" And your answer to the 1.88 versus 1.5 question I posed makes my point quite nicely. Total putts is a terrible metric to gauge putting ability."

Total putts in itself (without extra information) doesn't mean much, I agree. But since I mentioned at several occasions that the vast majority of my first putts is played from

outside 15 feet, I believe that THE 1.88 I TALK ABOUT does have meaning,

[saevel25]

Doesn't matter, you say most putts not all, meaning you can have a few par saves from close range, lets say 3, the rest you two putt. That is just under 1.88 putts per hole. So even by your game, it can be skewed by a few good short game shots. What is you chip in once, that's a no putt. Detail must be there if you want to analyze your game.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

"And your answer to the 1.88 versus 1.5 question I posed makes my point quite nicely. Total putts is a terrible metric to gauge putting ability."

Total putts in itself (without extra information) doesn't mean much, I agree. But since I mentioned at several occasions that the vast majority of my first putts is played from

outside 15 feet, I believe that THE 1.88 I TALK ABOUT does have meaning,

If you are a beginner I assume you wouldn't be hitting a ton of greens. If that's the case averaging +15 feet on putts says some chipping practice is in order.