Cheating at Outings.....

[sigfan2340]

I am golfing in an outing this week where the winners are always -10 to -15 best ball for 18 holes. These people are that good. The group in front of us "won" last year and they couldn't keep it the fairway, we waited almost every shot for them, it was terrible. I am a guest/invited player on a team and have no connection to anyone except for the person that invites me and pays for our spot. Is it better just keep my mouth shut or just make smart ass remarks well in the clubhouse? It ia a very well run and organized event otherwise.

[geauxforbroke]

Originally Posted by sigfan2340

I am golfing in an outing this week where the winners are always -10 to -15 best ball for 18 holes. These people are that good. The group in front of us "won" last year and they couldn't keep it the fairway, we waited almost every shot for them, it was terrible. I am a guest/invited player on a team and have no connection to anyone except for the person that invites me and pays for our spot. Is it better just keep my mouth shut or just make smart ass remarks well in the clubhouse? It ia a very well run and organized event otherwise.

Making smart-ass remarks won't help anything. Unless you can prove that someone is cheating, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose by saying something. If you do have proof that someone cheated, politely bring it up with the individual that invited you.

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by sigfan2340

I am golfing in an outing this week where the winners are always -10 to -15 best ball for 18 holes. These people are that good. The group in front of us "won" last year and they couldn't keep it the fairway, we waited almost every shot for them, it was terrible. I am a guest/invited player on a team and have no connection to anyone except for the person that invites me and pays for our spot. Is it better just keep my mouth shut or just make smart ass remarks well in the clubhouse? It ia a very well run and organized event otherwise.

Could they be the worst ball strikers you ever met, but manage to roll the ball towards the green in the least number of strokes?

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by sigfan2340

I am golfing in an outing this week where the winners are always -10 to -15 best ball for 18 holes. These people are that good. The group in front of us "won" last year and they couldn't keep it the fairway, we waited almost every shot for them, it was terrible. I am a guest/invited player on a team and have no connection to anyone except for the person that invites me and pays for our spot. Is it better just keep my mouth shut or just make smart ass remarks well in the clubhouse? It ia a very well run and organized event otherwise.

I would venture to say that there is some form of cheating, whether deliberate or not is another topic, in 80% of all scrambles (which is what most outings are). That's just what you should expect.

Rule of thumb: Never enter a scramble in hopes of making money or for profit. I only play in a scramble if I'm playing for fun and if it is for a good cause. Aside from that, there's no point in wasting my time with people who claim 14 under par in a flighted scramble in the rain, with an active Wind Advisory and BACs higher than their best player's handicap. I'll pass!

[Teamanglerx]

I never worry about winning in a best ball tournament.  For me, its usually a chance to have fun playing golf for a good cause at some nice courses (in fact, in Oct I get to play in a friends charity tournament at TPC Deere Run where they play the John Deere Classic).  I know some people always need to be on the winning team at these things but what is the point of winning when the entire event is supposed to be about helping a good cause?  Just go and play golf and have a good time.

[RickK]

Most "outings" I play in are scrambles.  They are generally are to raise money for some charity or they are sponsored by one of our vendors who just wants us to give them more business.  Most of them have free food and drinks along with possibly some good give-aways or good raffle items.  I have been on winning teams more than once but the odds are definitely against it. If people can put their own teams together, you have guys who put a team together just to have a good time and drink some beer.  Then you have those who go out and solicit college golf team players just so they have a better than average chance of winning.  I have been on teams where we sucked to begin with but someone wants to fudge just a little bit in hopes of finishing higher than someone else.  I hate that.  Case in point...4 man scramble.  Everyone putts and misses the putt, then someone putts another one (not where you are buying mulligans either) just to see if they could have made it and they do.  Then they want to count it.  I don't have a problem saying NO, we are not counting.

[David L Yskes]

cheating @ golf outings are basically the norm...   i mean i've done a few outings in the past 4 man best ball 18 hole tournaments, and i laugh when a group turns in a score of -21 under par for 18 holes.....  its like really???    you mean to tell me your group birdied every hole and eagled every par 5 hole???    thats my thinking when i see scores like that.....

[saevel25]

Lots of times these things are to raise money. so you can buy a lot of mulligans. Also some of these things are bring your own team. So you get a lot of single handicap groups who can really put out a good score.

I play in a scramble each year. No one cheats, i know these guys, they play in my golf leagues ever week. The guy puts together the groups, with A, B, C, D players. Usually only 1 long hitter per group as well. -6 to -8 wins it yearly. I tell my group, we get to -6 we have shot. I think the highest score i've seen is -9.

So, when a scramble with a lot of A players come in, i think they can shoot -15 or so, with out mulligans. You start buying mulligans, now you get crazy numbers.

[MS256]

Usually around here the winning score in most of the charity scrambles is -20 to -21.

There are certain groups of guys that can post that number with mulligans without raising any eyebrows at all. Usually they can buy 2 mulligans each and two "throws" each. Four scratch or better golfers can do that with no problem, especially if the have a really good lady or senior that's hitting from the short tees.

Then there are other groups that miraculously post that number and we all know there's not a chance it was legit....When that happens we just scratch our heads and head over to eat some barbecue.

[saevel25]

Just look at it this way. For simplicity, if each player is the same type of player, they all hit around 50% fairways in regulation, and 60% greens in regulation. Lets say they get all decent distance on there drives, 250-260 average

Chance of the group hitting a fairway on every hole. Well its 50% for each player, that means the probability of all them missing the fairway is 6.25%, meaning the fairway will be hit 93.75% of the time.

Same with Greens in regulation, probability of missing the green is 2.56%, so making the green will be 97.44%

So a group of four A players, would hit 17-18 greens in regulation, and hit probably all but one fairway.

Putting is a whole different story. You get the worst putter to go first, and best to go last. You give each subsequent player more information, the odds of people making putts greatly increases. If there four A players, then they have consistent putting. Meaning they put putter to ball consistently. The only thing that gives them trouble is reading the putts and hitting the right speed.

So now basically your group of A players have become 1 player who hits 97% of the greens, 94% of the fairways, and has putting with a lot of knowledge on the putts. So, really its not that unforeseeable to see a group of players go very low under par.

For example, the scramble i played in, our group missed 1 green all day. We only made two birdies because we couldn't sink any putts. We had about 10 less than 20' putts. It was frustrating. We could easily have been 9-10 under par.

[RickK]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Just look at it this way. For simplicity, if each player is the same type of player, they all hit around 50% fairways in regulation, and 60% greens in regulation. Lets say they get all decent distance on there drives, 250-260 average

Chance of the group hitting a fairway on every hole. Well its 50% for each player, that means the probability of all them missing the fairway is 6.25%, meaning the fairway will be hit 93.75% of the time.

Same with Greens in regulation, probability of missing the green is 2.56%, so making the green will be 97.44%

So a group of four A players, would hit 17-18 greens in regulation, and hit probably all but one fairway.

Putting is a whole different story. You get the worst putter to go first, and best to go last. You give each subsequent player more information, the odds of people making putts greatly increases. If there four A players, then they have consistent putting. Meaning they put putter to ball consistently. The only thing that gives them trouble is reading the putts and hitting the right speed.

So now basically your group of A players have become 1 player who hits 97% of the greens, 94% of the fairways, and has putting with a lot of knowledge on the putts. So, really its not that unforeseeable to see a group of players go very low under par.

For example, the scramble i played in, our group missed 1 green all day. We only made two birdies because we couldn't sink any putts. We had about 10 less than 20' putts. It was frustrating. We could easily have been 9-10 under par.

Another reason groups loaded with A players tend to go very low has to do with the tees being played in these event.  Most really good young A players do not play from the "white" tees, or whaterver color the tees are for the middle set of 3 tees or 2 up from the back with 4 sets of tees.  You have a group of 4 players who all can probably reach par 5s with irons...you are going to have 4 putts at eagle.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by RickK

Another reason groups loaded with A players tend to go very low has to do with the tees being played in these event.  Most really good young A players do not play from the "white" tees, or whaterver color the tees are for the middle set of 3 tees or 2 up from the back with 4 sets of tees.  You have a group of 4 players who all can probably reach par 5s with irons...you are going to have 4 putts at eagle.

This is usually the case from what I have seen, though several 2-man scrambles at a local course near me enforces teeing from the tips. Unfortunately, the course is still only 6,200 from the tips and is still easy to reach GIR if you have players with distance going out (obviously, accuracy is required).

[Nutter]

Originally Posted by MS256

Usually around here the winning score in most of the charity scrambles is -20 to -21.

There are certain groups of guys that can post that number with mulligans without raising any eyebrows at all. Usually they can buy 2 mulligans each and two "throws" each. Four scratch or better golfers can do that with no problem, especially if the have a really good lady or senior that's hitting from the short tees.

Then there are other groups that miraculously post that number and we all know there's not a chance it was legit....When that happens we just scratch our heads and head over to eat some barbecue.

This here, If by best ball you mean everyone plays their own ball and the best score amongst the team is carded then 10 to 15 under isn't bad.  But a bunch of average joes out there could easily shoot that without it looking pretty if it's a scramble, they just don't have any competition.  We shot -20 one day and came back to find some group of guys had supposedly shot -24 and stood there with big grins on their faces, seemed like a good number to pick to me to make sure no legit teams actually beat it.

[whatwoodtigerdo]

My group usually just counts anything within 30 feet as a gimme. Pretty sure that's the norm.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by David L Yskes

cheating @ golf outings are basically the norm...   i mean i've done a few outings in the past 4 man best ball 18 hole tournaments, and i laugh when a group turns in a score of -21 under par for 18 holes.....  its like really???    you mean to tell me your group birdied every hole and eagled every par 5 hole???    thats my thinking when i see scores like that.....

This is the problem- It is human nature to cheat when you think others are cheating as this makes your cheating necessary to level the playing field.  Put another way, a guy who is normally honest will tend to cheat more when he is convinced others are cheating (especially if he is near certain he can get away with it).

So even if a good score is possible in a scramble (or 4 man best ball) by good play, bad players are convinced it is BS, so after playing in their first scramble, they are convinced that they need to cheat just to keep even...once the flood gates are open with this, it only gets worse and worse.

[TJBam]

Scrambles are for charities, for the kids man.  Not for your pocketbook or ego.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Chance of the group hitting a fairway on every hole. Well its 50% for each player, that means the probability of all them missing the fairway is 6.25%, meaning the fairway will be hit 93.75% of the time.

I've actually never been on a scramble team that didn't have at least one ball in the fairway on every hole, and most of the scramble teams I've been on weren't loaded teams. Usually a company pays the entry fees and it's just some guys from work that are only decent golfers.

I would be very surprised if any of the winning teams ever missed a fairway.

The plan is always for the first guy to get something in the fairway and let everybody else bomb away. If the first guy happens to miss that job falls to the next player.

[Gilberg]

I hate cheaters.  Specially with golf cause it is a gentlemans sport.  I keep telling them "If you are going to cheat then go play an OTHER sport and they tell me "Go back to the Cart!""!

At least if you are going to cheat don't make it so obvios.  Yeah, I will shave a couple strokes off per round if no one is paying attention, but I NEVER do it if they are paying attention.

I played in a golf scramble eons ago and the group who won didn't even set foot on the course.  They litrally set inside and drank Bartles and James all day, and yeah they shot a +3, yeah right.  I told them that if they ever pull a stunt like that again then I would bring in some people to beat them into a living death.  But before I could tell them they walked off with their girlfriends.