Pace Problem

[colin007]

4.5 hours is slow.  says who?  me.  yeah, its arbitrary, but thats what im sticking with.  hell, 4 hours is slow IMHO.  i play a 4 hour round and its littered with waiting on tee boxes.  what the hell is taking so long???

[Cartboy]

4.5 hours is slow.  says who?  me.  yeah, its arbitrary, but thats what im sticking with.  hell, 4 hours is slow IMHO.  i play a 4 hour round and its littered with waiting on tee boxes.  what the hell is taking so long???

While I might agree with that sentiment personally, I think I've made it obvious that such an unfriendly and undiplomatic approach is not on the table.

[colin007]

While I might agree with that sentiment personally, I think I've made it obvious that such an unfriendly and undiplomatic approach is not on the table.

It's a mentality. An American mentality. I played last summer with a lady from Ireland who was visiting the US, and we were complaining about the pace of play (we were heading for about a 2 hour nine hole round) and she was telling me about her club in Ireland. The first time your group takes 4 hours to complete a round you get a warning. The second time, you get tee times taken away for two weeks. You are expected to play in 3.5 hours. I love it.

[Cartboy]

It's a mentality. An American mentality.

I played last summer with a lady from Ireland who was visiting the US, and we were complaining about the pace of play (we were heading for about a 2 hour nine hole round) and she was telling me about her club in Ireland. The first time your group takes 4 hours to complete a round you get a warning. The second time, you get tee times taken away for two weeks. You are expected to play in 3.5 hours. I love it.

Post 164

[David in FL]

It's a mentality. An American mentality. I played last summer with a lady from Ireland who was visiting the US, and we were complaining about the pace of play (we were heading for about a 2 hour nine hole round) and she was telling me about her club in Ireland. The first time your group takes 4 hours to complete a round you get a warning. The second time, you get tee times taken away for two weeks. You are expected to play in 3.5 hours. I love it.

Not necessarily American, but we certainly have our share. Courses like the OP's that pay lip service to pace of play, but stop well short of actually doing anything about it. As a result, the fast players tend to frequent the courses that demand, and subsequently get, a reasonable pace of play. Likewise, the slow players congregate at those courses that cater to them through their unwillingness to hold them accountable for their daily death march.....

[Cartboy]

Courses like the OP's that pay lip service to pace of play, but stop well short of actually doing anything about it.

Cute.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

[David in FL]

Cute. Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Sorry if that sounded snarky.....it wasn't meant to be directed at you. I could have/should have left out the reference to your course in my response. The point remains though. If a course sets an expectation of long rounds they'll get them. If they also refuse to address violators aggressively, they'll continue to attract them and will perpetuate their reputation as a slow course. It becomes a vicious circle that's tough to break.

[Cartboy]

Sorry if that sounded snarky.....it wasn't meant to be directed at you. I could have/should have left out the reference to your course in my response.

The point remains though. If a course sets an expectation of long rounds they'll get them. If they also refuse to address violators aggressively, they'll continue to attract them and will perpetuate their reputation as a slow course. It becomes a vicious circle that's tough to break.

Thus, I'm here, trying.

But, you're right.  If it is not a concern for the Pro and GM, like it is for me, it does not matter that it is for me.

But, I hate to be sent out, way-too-late, and then get my ass chewed.

The big problem even if we implement something like the Troon idea that I presented is what to do with groups that don't live up to it, which takes us back to the OP.

Maybe I'll contact Troon and see how they back that up.

[Cartboy]

Hmmmmm!?

All the experts in the game of golf seem to be addressing the pace of play issue, seem to agree that there is no simple fix, seem to agree that not all courses are equal, and seem to agree that there is plenty of blame to go around, including to those in charge of the game of golf.

As mentioned before, Troon appears to be very serious about it.  They appear to be allowing their courses to set their own "Time Par".  Here's one where it's 4:35, which would be very similar to our course:

http://www.golfbusinessmonitor.com/golf_industry/2013/07/how-troon-golf-handles-slow-golfers.html

Still, they are not saying what they do about slow players.

So, if you try and try and try, but don't go as far as kicking people off, does that mean it's just lip service?

[wils5150]

We have told players that they must skip the next hole to try and catch up. some are ok with it some are not.golfers who hate slow play want a course to do what ever the have to to speed up play , but the reality is you cant totally piss off your customers and have them not come back. no green fee = no golf course.

[Fourputt]

The solution is simple.  Finding a way to apply it is the hard part.  I've said it before and nobody is going to convince me otherwise, but it's nothing more than a matter of education.  Teach the players how to play at a good pace, and to begin with make them aware that it will be enforced, and ultimately you will change the golfer's mindset.  It's easy to say, but how you go about it I have no idea.  In a private club with a captive membership, contact and training is, or should be pretty easy.

However, the problems are on public courses with at least partially a migratory customer base, and trying to train a group of players which may only ever play there once or twice is just not feasible.  The only way to do that is to not only set a policy, make the tips for keeping the policy highly visible, but it would have to be vigorously enforced until the general paradigm has been shifted.  It would also take agreement among the courses in a given area so that the players who are unduly resistant can't just move down the road.  Once they find that they have to change or they don't play, they will change - yeah, a few will quit, but those are the jerks you really don't want for customers anyway.

It's going to take a willingness to piss off a few customers in order to give the rest a better playing experience.  In my experience, not many courses are willing to to take the first big step.

[Cartboy]

I have engaged our management company on the issue, so I will take a back seat now.

- - - -

I had an interesting round Sunday at one of those flat Florida courses.  I had an E Z Links tee time, but it was not busy, the guys know me, and they let me go early by myself.  I caught up with play on the 5th or 6th hole.  I realized it was a members' mixed scramble, several foursomes in front of me.

As I watched them, I thought about this thread.  One of the suggestions we have given to slow groups in the past was to maybe go to a scramble, or that is something groups offer to do on their own.  Watching these groups, I saw that might be a mistake.  Intead of just going to the best ball and all,hitting, they were driving all over the place, going forward, coming back, etc.  Then they would all hit, which is where it dawned on me that Ready Golf would be much faster, since they don't have to wait to hit.

Some of our slowest golf at my home course is outside groups that have an event and play a Scramble

I skipped one hole to move forward to a gap, but one hole later I had caught up with the pack.  That was on 15, so I just played on in, then went back and played 12, the hole I skipped.

When I came in one of the guys in the scramble group apologized for slow play.  Of course, with it being 80 degrees out, and being on a golf course, I said No Problem.

I went to the Starter, whom I know, and looked at the tee sheet, to see when they had teed off.  He said they got around in four hours, but the tee sheet said otherwise.

Some here have been pretty hard-hearted about slow play, but even as a customer you have to be careful to not wear out your welcome.  An outsider complaining about members would be a sure way to do that.

I shot my lowest round since last winter on a flat Florida course.  I've gotta get around and head to Captiva.

[David in FL]

I have engaged our management company on the issue, so I will take a back seat now.

- - - -

I had an interesting round Sunday at one of those flat Florida courses.  I had an E Z Links tee time, but it was not busy, the guys know me, and they let me go early by myself.  I caught up with play on the 5th or 6th hole.  I realized it was a members' mixed scramble, several foursomes in front of me.

As I watched them, I thought about this thread.  One of the suggestions we have given to slow groups in the past was to maybe go to a scramble, or that is something groups offer to do on their own.  Watching these groups, I saw that might be a mistake.  Intead of just going to the best ball and all,hitting, they were driving all over the place, going forward, coming back, etc.  Then they would all hit, which is where it dawned on me that Ready Golf would be much faster, since they don't have to wait to hit.

Some of our slowest golf at my home course is outside groups that have an event and play a Scramble

I skipped one hole to move forward to a gap, but one hole later I had caught up with the pack.  That was on 15, so I just played on in, then went back and played 12, the hole I skipped.

When I came in one of the guys in the scramble group apologized for slow play.  Of course, with it being 80 degrees out, and being on a golf course, I said No Problem.

I went to the Starter, whom I know, and looked at the tee sheet, to see when they had teed off.  He said they got around in four hours, but the tee sheet said otherwise.

Some here have been pretty hard-hearted about slow play, but even as a customer you have to be careful to not wear out your welcome.  An outsider complaining about members would be a sure way to do that.

I shot my lowest round since last winter on a flat Florida course.  I've gotta get around and head to Captiva.

Another case of the course being oblivious, or not willing to address the issue.......to the point that they hide their head in the sand and refuse to even acknowledge the problem.  You didn't mention it, but it sounds like there wasn't any marshal on the course holding people accountable for their pace of play.

I'll continue to say, if the course allows slow play, they'll get slow play, moreover, they'll attract the slow players who know that they won't be bothered.......

[colin007]

Another case of the course being oblivious, or not willing to address the issue.......to the point that they hide their head in the sand and refuse to even acknowledge the problem.  You didn't mention it, but it sounds like there wasn't any marshal on the course holding people accountable for their pace of play. I'll continue to say, if the course allows slow play, they'll get slow play, moreover, they'll attract the slow players who know that they won't be bothered.......

I agree. My home course is marshaled by a bunch of older guys who get free rounds for their work. When they're in duty, the ride around chatting it up with the other old guys playing slow, playing from the whites, hitting driver on 130 yard par threes...And these guys know they'll never be told to hurry up...

[Dave2512]

The rangers at my former home course aren't like that. I've twice seen police there to escort people from the course after getting into it with the ranger. It still does little to cure slow play. Unless they catch it right at the start it's near impossible to speed up a half dozen jammed up groups. They can only be in one area at a time, that course actually has a ranger for each side on the weekends and it's still slow. If courses truly want to keep play moving they need to take the choice away from the golfer. I'll say it again. The courses here that make gps carts mandatory and monitor the pace via the cart never have a problem.

[Cartboy]

The 27-hole  Florida course I was Supervisor at last Winter always had 2 Rangers on duty.  The members insisted on that.  Pace was not a problem, except for the early member groups who got around their first nine too fast, and bitched because they had to wait to get the first tee for their back nine.  Of course, the groups they were waiting on were non-members, almost always E Z Links, which that course called "fee"  players, so that only compounded the bitching, members waiting for outside players to take the tee, and then having to play behind them.

That course had just converted to paid employees out of fear of reprisal, but historically, courses in SW FL have been served by vounteers, typically retired guys working for golf and tips.  A few actions by the State of Florida causing courses to ante up "back pay" has changed that, but many still have volunteer Rangers and Player Services staff.

http://jacksonville.com/sports/golf/2012-03-02/story/government-cracks-down-compensating-course-volunteers-free-golf

Yeah, I digress a bit, but having volunteer employees dilutes their effectiveness IMO.

As for GPS, where there once might have been a hope that we would get them at my home course, so many golfers have handhelds or GPS watches, that that is now a moot point.  I had them at my previous home course, and it was nice to be able to put one in Marshal Mode, and show the slow group that they are the ones that have made everyone behind them "red".  Still, that course has had marshals, too, the last couple of years, even with slow groups being able to see they are behind every time they look at the screen.  They still need to be told, but it's hard for them to deny culpability.

It's nice to have GPS to find that last cart or two at the end of the day, when it's dark.

[Cartboy]

Just inadvertently, I stumbled onto some stuff from another course in my home area, one I'm a member at.  Pace is 4 1/2 hours.  I always thought theirs was 4, and it plays a lot faster than the one I work at.

[Fourputt]

Just inadvertently, I stumbled onto some stuff from another course in my home area, one I'm a member at.  Pace is 4 1/2 hours.  I always thought theirs was 4, and it plays a lot faster than the one I work at.

It's been my experience that the posted recommended pace is usually quite liberal.  Most of the courses I've played at post a pace which should be maintainable with little effort.  My home course is posted at 4:25 (2:10 for each side and 5 minutes for the turn), yet I've played it on a weekday with a fivesome in 3:55.