The 50 yard bunker shot.

[natureboy]

On 11/9/2013 at 0:32 PM, iacas said:

Hit a 9I or even an 8I. Plan for more run. Do everything else the same (the club will dig more due to much less bounce, but that should mostly be after the ball is on its way).

 

You can lay the 8I open a little bit to add a bit of loft and bounce back to the shot.

Do you club up and swing with the same speed as a 50-yard wedge carry or with the speed closer to a 100 yard carry?

[iacas]

On December 9, 2015 at 7:08 PM, natureboy said:

Do you club up and swing with the same speed as a 50-yard wedge carry or with the speed closer to a 100 yard carry?

I don't know. It's probably faster than a 50-yard wedge swing since I've got less loft, but… I don't know.

There's a fairly long bunker shot in the alternate shot with the purple ball video @mvmac and I shot in Phoenix. I used a squared up PW, there, I think.

[natureboy]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't know. It's probably faster than a 50-yard wedge swing since I've got less loft, but… I don't know.

There's a fairly long bunker shot in the alternate shot with the purple ball video @mvmac and I shot in Phoenix. I used a squared up PW, there, I think.

I ask because as far as distance judging, I've heard a 'rule of thumb' that when you hit sand first the ball tend to go about 50% of the equivalent pitch / wedge swing from the fairway.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, natureboy said:

I ask because as far as distance judging, I've heard a 'rule of thumb' that when you hit sand first the ball tend to go about 50% of the equivalent pitch / wedge swing from the fairway.

That's a stupid rule of thumb. Way too many variables to break it down like that. Density of the sand, how far behind you hit, the wind, the firmness of the green, any slopes… etc.

Besides, you asked if I swung as hard as a 50-yard pitching wedge shot after I'd answered that to hit 8-iron or 9-iron.

Again, I couldn't tell you. I swing as hard as I think I should to play the shot at hand.

[natureboy]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

That's a stupid rule of thumb. Way too many variables to break it down like that. Density of the sand, how far behind you hit, the wind, the firmness of the green, any slopes… etc.

Besides, you asked if I swung as hard as a 50-yard pitching wedge shot after I'd answered that to hit 8-iron or 9-iron.

Again, I couldn't tell you. I swing as hard as I think I should to play the shot at hand.

I think it's only a stupid rule of thumb for someone with a lot of experience and developed touch.

From my experience as a recent beginner it does help to have some frameworks to start out. For example while individual conditions certainly vary, a ballpark estimate of 60% normal distance out of the rough gave me something that was close enough to start and tweak according to my experience. Also, while individual green speeds and conditions will affect what distance a certain length putting stroke will tend to send the ball, it may be helpful to gauge backswing lengths as a starting point in absence of years of experienced feels and accumulated touch. This kind of recommendation is certainly common in golf instruction for newer player, so it may have merit. I suspect you've forgotten how much feel you had to develop from a beginner level.

While I agree there are lots of kinds of sand conditions that will affect the shot, I would bet that most loose dry and most wet compact sand would as individual groups have usefully predictable % range of values relative to a clean lie off the fairway for a 'calibrated' wedge shot - if you hit it reasonably correctly (not thinned and not digging deep). Slopes and wind I can account for independently of ball speed off contact. The green conditions do not come into it for my question because I am referring to carry distance.

Edited December 11, 2015 by natureboy

[iacas]

I still think it's a stupid rule of thumb. Way way too many variables. If you're that new throw the ball out. Or chunk it out. You shouldn't really even be trying the 50-yard bunker shot with an 8-iron.

60% out of the rough is equally dumb. Again way too many variables.

No, I haven't forgotten. I teach all manner of players. "Touch" is vastly overrated. All players have touch. It's the technique they lack.

Let's stick to the topic instead of trying to pick at things. No I don't judge it to be 50%.

I've even hit sand wedge from 60 yards if I can get clean contact.

[natureboy]

26 minutes ago, iacas said:

I've even hit sand wedge from 60 yards if I can get clean contact.

Right, but do you hit it harder than a sand wedge shot from the same distance in the fairway..if so - about how much?

I actually found the 60% rough ballpark and 50% sand ballpark to be useful starting points until I had my own personal experience base with the shots and my range of local conditions. Relative to fairway the 'typical' rough and 'typical' loose dry sand bunker will tend to slow clubhead speed by a significant margin if you catch either before the ball (really thick high rough and really fluffy sand even more so), so both shots will 'typically' travel less far, yes?

I 100% agree, a percentage is individual to a player and their circumstances, but I personally find a ballpark recommendation to be more helpful to initiate my practice (as I did when I started with greenside bunkers and now have my own 'feel' experience base) on the shot than 'hit a bunch and see what works for you' though that is certainly an option.

How about a range on a scale of 1 to 10 if percentage conveys erroneous implied accuracy with a caveat that no one will hold you personally responsible if it turns out differently for them?

Edited December 11, 2015 by natureboy

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Right, but do you hit it harder than a sand wedge shot from the same distance in the fairway..if so - about how much?

Yes, a percentage is individual to you and the circumstances, but I personally find a ballpark recommendation to be more helpful to initiate my practice (as I did when I started with greenside bunkers and now have my own 'feel' experience base) on the shot than 'hit a bunch and see what works for you' though that is certainly an option.

How about a range on a scale of 1 to 10 if percentage conveys erroneous implied accuracy?

Percentages, 1-10, all garbage. People can't swing at those percentages anyway. Pointless. Glad you think it works for you… but it probably doesn't really. I doubt you swing the % you think.

I swing the same. It's clean contact. The lie is irrelevant (once I've decided to use that shot). No harder.

[natureboy]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Percentages, 1-10, all garbage. People can't swing at those percentages anyway. Pointless. Glad you think it works for you… but it probably doesn't really. I doubt you swing the % you think.

I doubt I swing the percent I do either, but it's still a helpful pre-shot thought to prep my body to override the tendency I would have to leave it in the bunker by swinging at a greenside shot with the same club speed as a pitch from that distance. I haven't played hundreds of rounds.

 

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

I swing the same. It's clean contact. The lie is irrelevant (once I've decided to use that shot). No harder.

Ah, so you are saying to pick the ball rather than hit the sand first? I did not see that detail in your advice. That is a helpful clarification. Many of the recommendations I've seen (and where I thought you were coming from) have been to club up and hit sand first like a standard bunker shot.

So with clean contact you are saying club up and swing the same as you would for that new club from that same distance to the pin from the fairway, which is likely be be a bit less club speed (for a stock shot) than the higher loft club from the same distance.

Edited December 11, 2015 by natureboy

[SavvySwede]

Tried a 50 yarder yesterday playing a practice 9 after work. Used my 54* wedge slightly open, a 3/4 swing, and thumped it about 1 1/2-2 inches behind the ball. Came out high and soft with some check. 

[natureboy]

33 minutes ago, SavvySwede said:

Tried a 50 yarder yesterday playing a practice 9 after work. Used my 54* wedge slightly open, a 3/4 swing, and thumped it about 1 1/2-2 inches behind the ball. Came out high and soft with some check. 

Were you aiming to take sand under the ball like a greenside shot or pick it clean / hit it like a standard pitch?

Edited December 12, 2015 by natureboy

[SavvySwede]

10 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Were you aiming to take sand under the ball like a greenside shot or pick it clean / hit it like a standard pitch?

Normal bunker technique. Just a bigger swing, more club (54 instead of 58) and opening the face less.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, natureboy said:

Ah, so you are saying to pick the ball rather than hit the sand first?

I don't use the word "pick" like that. I hit the ball cleanly first, then take a "divot" from the sand. Picking implies not disturbing much sand or grass.

And I rarely use that shot, as it requires an awfully clean lie and relatively packed sand.

1 hour ago, natureboy said:

Many of the recommendations I've seen (and where I thought you were coming from) have been to club up and hit sand first like a standard bunker shot.

Re-read what I wrote. That's the typical shot.

The standard yardage, standard contact shot is rarely used.

[natureboy]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't use the word "pick" like that. I hit the ball cleanly first, then take a "divot" from the sand. Picking implies not disturbing much sand or grass.

The standard yardage, standard contact shot is rarely used.

What you originally wrote sounded like a standard bunker shot with more club, but with your phrase 'ball is mostly on its way' before the less bounce 'really digs', makes it sound more like a fairway bunker shot using the ball then sand described in the upper phrase. I think you mean standard bunker sand first shot, but want to be sure.

If I am correct there, how would you describe your calibration of the longer distance with the extra club or two? Do you swing about the same as for a greenside shot and just rely on the stronger loft to carry it the greater distance?

Edited December 12, 2015 by natureboy

[iacas]

22 hours ago, natureboy said:

What you originally wrote sounded like a standard bunker shot with more club, but with your phrase 'ball is mostly on its way' before the less bounce 'really digs', makes it sound more like a fairway bunker shot using the ball then sand described in the upper phrase. I think you mean standard bunker sand first shot, but want to be sure.

I've clearly described TWO separate shots.

1. Most of the time, I hit these shots with a normal bunker shot technique with an 8-iron or a 9-iron.
2. Occasionally I hit them like a normal wedge shot, ball first and then a divot from the sand.

I looked back over my posts. The second point was made almost as an aside about how you can't judge things by percentage, because sometimes it's even 100% - when I choose to go with option 2.

[natureboy]

On 12/13/2015 at 10:12 PM, iacas said:

I've clearly described TWO separate shots.

1. Most of the time, I hit these shots with a normal bunker shot technique with an 8-iron or a 9-iron.

So for the shot above at 50 yards vs a greenside shot of 10-20 yards....all other conditions being equal...do you swing harder / faster to carry the ball to the hole or rely solely on the stronger loft and lower trajectory to 'do the extra work' for you? If you swing harder / use faster clubhead speed through impact is your intention to swing as fast as you would from 50 yards out on a 'typical' lie in the fairway or less so?

[natureboy]

On 12/14/2015 at 10:54 PM, natureboy said:

So for the shot above at 50 yards vs a greenside shot of 10-20 yards....all other conditions being equal...do you swing harder / faster to carry the ball to the hole or rely solely on the stronger loft and lower trajectory to 'do the extra work' for you? If you swing harder / use faster clubhead speed through impact is your intention to swing as fast as you would from 50 yards out on a 'typical' lie in the fairway or less so?

 

 

[iacas]

On December 14, 2015 at 10:54 PM, natureboy said:

So for the shot above at 50 yards vs a greenside shot of 10-20 yards....all other conditions being equal...do you swing harder / faster to carry the ball to the hole or rely solely on the stronger loft and lower trajectory to 'do the extra work' for you? If you swing harder / use faster clubhead speed through impact is your intention to swing as fast as you would from 50 yards out on a 'typical' lie in the fairway or less so?

I don't think about it. Like with the other stuff, there are way too many factors to come up with a general rule of thumb.