Are you considering " lofting up" ? Or what is all this lofting up I am hearing about ?

[Mr. Desmond]

Effin' beast I need to eat more protein

[saevel25]

Effin' beast

I need to eat more protein

When I had years of over swinging the club. From when I started till even slightly now. I got serious turn in my body. If I was doing stretches, like lying on my back, bend my legs up like sitting position, then rotate them to the left or right. I can get them to the ground with ease and still keep my back flat. So getting 90 degrees is pretty easy for me to do.

As for lofting up, this club you need to do that. This driver has some seriously low spin capability. It will be going in my bag in the near future.

[billchao]

You guys have gotten me seriously interested in the SLDR. I haven't been to a launch monitor with my driver lately, but from what I remember, I have too much spin. Maybe I'll run out to the store tomorrow and see it for myself.

[billchao]

So I went to the store today and tried out the SLDR. I learned two things: 1. I really suck at hitting driver. I missed everything on the heel, and I could tell that I was cutting across the ball a lot. I realized on the drive home that I wasn't using any of the new feels I've been practicing, so I have to keep monitoring that. 2. I actually need to loft down. My current driver is an Adams 9064LS, 10.5°, 60g Aldila RIP Gamma stiff shaft. I was launching it around 12-17° and around 3,300-4,000+ RPMs. I tried the SLDR at 10.5° and launched it around the same 12-17° but the spin dropped by about 800-1,000 RPMs. We changed it to 9.5° and it brought the launch down a bit and the spin rate was around 2,000-2,800 RPMs. Bottom line is, I still suck, but the SLDR is an interesting club for me. At least I know for sure that my driver setup doesn't work for me anymore, but I'm not convinced that a new driver will fix my problems at the moment. I have to keep working on the swing.

[saevel25]

So I went to the store today and tried out the SLDR. I learned two things:

1. I really suck at hitting driver. I missed everything on the heel, and I could tell that I was cutting across the ball a lot. I realized on the drive home that I wasn't using any of the new feels I've been practicing, so I have to keep monitoring that.

2. I actually need to loft down. My current driver is an Adams 9064LS, 10.5°, 60g Aldila RIP Gamma stiff shaft. I was launching it around 12-17° and around 3,300-4,000+ RPMs. I tried the SLDR at 10.5° and launched it around the same 12-17° but the spin dropped by about 800-1,000 RPMs. We changed it to 9.5° and it brought the launch down a bit and the spin rate was around 2,000-2,800 RPMs.

Bottom line is, I still suck, but the SLDR is an interesting club for me. At least I know for sure that my driver setup doesn't work for me anymore, but I'm not convinced that a new driver will fix my problems at the moment. I have to keep working on the swing.

Well the premise is that if you have a good fitted driver for you, and you get fitted properly for a SLDR you will have to loft up. The fact you lofted down, just shows your first driver was a bad fit. 3,300-4,000 RPM is a bad fit. But having the same loft and loosing 800-1000 RPM shows you that the SLDR does it suppose to do, lower spin.

[Mr. Desmond]

Well the premise is that if you have a good fitted driver for you, and you get fitted properly for a SLDR you will have to loft up. The fact you lofted down, just shows your first driver was a bad fit. 3,300-4,000 RPM is a bad fit. But having the same loft and loosing 800-1000 RPM shows you that the SLDR does it suppose to do, lower spin.

Another potential solution in addition to lofting up is an alternative shaft to fine tune the spin and launch.

[saevel25]

The problem still is that if you change a shaft to get you a higher launch you are basically increasing dynamic loft. Which will increase spin. If you check out the Titleist custom options, they have a chart that shows launch and spin. Its close to a linear relationship between spin and launch.

So if you fine tune spin, you will get a lower launching club. The problem is that then people can't get enough airtime to maximize carry because of the low spin low launch. What Taylormade is doing with low spin high launch is that they change the gear effect. So this allows someone to get significantly less spin on the club, but still keep that 12-15 degrees if launch. This optimizes spin, and launch angle. Creating a much more boring trajectory and maximizing carry.

[Mr. Desmond]

The problem still is that if you change a shaft to get you a higher launch you are basically increasing dynamic loft. Which will increase spin. If you check out the Titleist custom options, they have a chart that shows launch and spin. Its close to a linear relationship between spin and launch.

So if you fine tune spin, you will get a lower launching club. The problem is that then people can't get enough airtime to maximize carry because of the low spin low launch. What Taylormade is doing with low spin high launch is that they change the gear effect. So this allows someone to get significantly less spin on the club, but still keep that 12-15 degrees if launch. This optimizes spin, and launch angle. Creating a much more boring trajectory and maximizing carry.

Yes, I've seen the Titleist chart several times.

And yes, I agree with what you say, and I've been through all of this.

Basically, in the above poster's case, after loft is optimized up, a higher weight shaft may fine tune his spin to get it to a max distance level.

And still, the one problem TM has not solved is that moving the weight forward also reduces forgiveness.

The R1 is about at the balance level of forgiveness v. performance for me. And at $135 new, it sounds like an attractive candidate for many to involve another shaft.... lol.

[saevel25]

Yes, I've seen the Titleist chart several times.

And yes, I agree with what you say, and I've been through all of this.

Basically, in the above poster's case, after loft is optimized up, a higher weight shaft may fine tune his spin to get it to a max distance level.

And still, the one problem TM has not solved is that moving the weight forward also reduces forgiveness.

The R1 is about at the balance level of forgiveness v. performance for me. And at $135 new, it sounds like an attractive candidate for many to involve another shaft.... lol.

I don't find it to be that big of a deal. The MOI for drivers are still absurd with most cases. I do agree it might be more of a better players club, but I think that is nit picking a bit.

Yea I get what you are saying. I know I am switching in a few months. I have a low spin low launch heavy shaft for my Titleist, have it set down bellow 9.5 degrees and I still get over 3000 rpm. BLAH

[Spitfisher]

Yes, I've seen the Titleist chart several times. And yes, I agree with what you say, and I've been through all of this. Basically, in the above poster's case, after loft is optimized up, a higher weight shaft may fine tune his spin to get it to a max distance level. And still, the one problem TM has not solved is that moving the weight forward also reduces forgiveness.  The R1 is about at the balance level of forgiveness v. performance for me. And at $135 new, it sounds like an attractive candidate for many to involve another shaft.... lol.

I'll agree with the R1 assessment, but having played 35-40 rounds with the SLDR, the distance gained is still felt even on off center hits. you are using a higher lofted club than your misses of your old driver, so they still go in the air and carry. So that is my argument back at "reduces forgiveness " Miss hits and the impending results by a mid to higher handicap player is usually mechanics, timing and alignment before it gets to the level of a non forgivng driver, this is my opinion. The R1 is a remarkable driver, probably 80% of my fittings were 10.5 or higher loft.

[Mr. Desmond]

I'll agree with the R1 assessment, but having played 35-40 rounds with the SLDR, the distance gained is still felt even on off center hits. you are using a higher lofted club than your misses of your old driver, so they still go in the air and carry. So that is my argument back at "reduces forgiveness "

Miss hits and the impending results by a mid to higher handicap player is usually mechanics, timing and alignment before it gets to the level of a non forgivng driver, this is my opinion.

The R1 is a remarkable driver, probably 80% of my fittings were 10.5 or higher loft.

Always open minded, I'll wait for the 14+ loft.

Still I have an XHot that has seen the range but not the course... so we'll see how long SLDR lasts before SLDR 2....

[billchao]

Well the premise is that if you have a good fitted driver for you, and you get fitted properly for a SLDR you will have to loft up. The fact you lofted down, just shows your first driver was a bad fit. 3,300-4,000 RPM is a bad fit. But having the same loft and loosing 800-1000 RPM shows you that the SLDR does it suppose to do, lower spin.

Yea, the SLDR did exactly what it's supposed to do, I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear.

My driver was properly fit for me, three years ago. Back then, I had a huge total body lateral move towards the target during the downswing that moved the bottom of my swing arc forward quite a bit. As a result, I was hitting down on the ball and I really needed the higher loft to get my launch angle higher. Now, my swing is more centered, so as a result, I am more able to swing up on the ball. That's why the higher loft no longer works me.

I am planning to get a real Trackman fitting for my whole bag sometime this year, but I am fully aware that my driver woes are mostly my fault and not my equipment's. I just wanted to check out the club and it was a good excuse to go hit some golf balls.

[BENtSwing]

Maybe a little off topic, but I don't like starting new threads...

How does everyone think that the other brands will respond to this 'loft-up' movement? Have any of the industry-types on this forum heard of any prototypes from Titleist or others, that are meant to compete with the SLDR?

[Mr. Desmond]

Maybe a little off topic, but I don't like starting new threads...

How does everyone think that the other brands will respond to this 'loft-up' movement? Have any of the industry-types on this forum heard of any prototypes from Titleist or others, that are meant to compete with the SLDR?

They've been trying to get golfers to loft up for at least 10 years.

Golfers still think a higher lofted trajectory is too high.

[BENtSwing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENtSwing32

Maybe a little off topic, but I don't like starting new threads...

How does everyone think that the other brands will respond to this 'loft-up' movement? Have any of the industry-types on this forum heard of any prototypes from Titleist or others, that are meant to compete with the SLDR?

They've been trying to get golfers to loft up for at least 10 years.

Golfers still think a higher lofted trajectory is too high.

Really? Didn't realize this was an older issue. From what I'm reading and watching a lot of good golfers are buying into the low spin, high loft = more distance thing lately (some reluctantly - see below lol). Does it just come down to what trajectory golfers like to see, like you said? Would these specs decrease control, generally, for most golfers? If the high loft/low spin is being proved by data to give more distance, then what keeps golfers from going this route?

[Mr. Desmond]

Really? Didn't realize this was an older issue. From what I'm reading and watching a lot of good golfers are buying into the low spin, high loft = more distance thing lately (some reluctantly - see below lol). Does it just come down to what trajectory golfers like to see, like you said? Would these specs decrease control, generally, for most golfers? If the high loft/low spin is being proved by data to give more distance, then what keeps golfers from going this route?

Around the time the Ping TiSi came out, I know my retailers were trying to talk golfers up. At that time, it wasn't unusual for regular Joes to game 7.5 degree drivers. I played a 9.5 in the TiSi and 983K, moved up to a 10.5 in the mid-2000. OEM were playing with loft at that time to help golfers without telling them, and what was stamped on the driver could be 1-1.5 degrees more. These days, loft tends to be more accurate but a few OEMs still play the stamped loft game.

In 2008, Ping fit me into a 10 degree digitally lofted Rapture II to keep the trajectory slightly down in the Texas wind. I think that was a mistake - not enough loft. Before the SLDR, I was playing 12 degree drivers. In a SLDR, I'd try 14.

Why don't golfers play more loft? They're brainwashed into believing myths. Some have been told to keep the driver low in the wind, and actually that works for very slow swings on drought ridden fairways. If they'd get the ball in the air, the ball speed is so slow it would get knocked down quickly. I got out of the myth of low driver flight when I saw Harrison Frazier in the late 90's-early 00's bombing a 10.5 degree Big Bertha II over 300 yards and hitting it higher than my wedges. One has to see it to believe it. I don't think a lot of golfers go to pro events to see how high these guys bomb the ball.

Golfers are accustomed to a certain ball flight, and don't really don't know the meaning of "ballooning" ball flight. I'd be with friends or other on the range, they'd use my 12-12.5 degree driver and say "wow, that's too high" when it was still too low. They are comfy with low flight. It will take a launch monitor to convince them otherwise.

[saevel25]

Really? Didn't realize this was an older issue. From what I'm reading and watching a lot of good golfers are buying into the low spin, high loft = more distance thing lately (some reluctantly - see below lol). Does it just come down to what trajectory golfers like to see, like you said? Would these specs decrease control, generally, for most golfers? If the high loft/low spin is being proved by data to give more distance, then what keeps golfers from going this route?

To a certain point yes. What was important in that video was that Mark mentioned that Taylormade would have a hard time if they didn't have launch monitors. Its hard to convince people to change with out hard data. We all know from this site that even when presented with hard data some people still wont change their opinions.

Trajectory-wise. The low to high ballooning shot is not optimal. It might be what they are use to. A slightly higher launching + boring trajectory is much more optimal. Like Mark said that he thinks the ball goes higher but it doesn't. He's use to that later and steeper rise in the ball off the driver, compared to a more leveling out trajectory. The numbers proved him that the SLDR did produce a same height trajectory, and got him more carry. Though too little spin and the ball can just drop out of the air too fast. So there is a balance that has to be played with this driver. So fitting is much more important with the SLDR than I would say with other drivers. Just because its just an outlier with its launch characteristics.

Not necessarily, depends on the golfer. I would say yes, the SLDR is one of the more non-forgiving drivers right now. Compare that to drivers 10 years ago, still WAY MORE forgiving. To say that it can't be used by high handicappers is rubbish really. The MOI on drivers area so high now that it isn't that big of a deal.

What keeps golfers from going this route. Ego, resistance to change, its a question that drives the economics on every product yea? This is why Taylormade is really for the first time in a long time, driving resources into a campaign to inform golfers. They know this is game changing stuff here.

I do agree for some golfers there just isn't enough loft on those drivers.

They've been trying to get golfers to loft up for at least 10 years.

Golfers still think a higher lofted trajectory is too high.

Actually I wonder how many drivers are higher lofted compared to the number printed on them . Maybe companies are doing the old bait and switch move.

Yea I agree, people are just way too use to what they think is right, when its not.

[iacas]

They've been trying to get golfers to loft up for at least 10 years.

Golfers still think a higher lofted trajectory is too high.

I just finished writing this section in LSW - about how truly high "high launch" can seem.

I wrote about how I spent two days with the Titleist fitting van and they were constantly trying to get higher launch from people. These guys had 8.5 and even lower lofted drivers, and they kept trying to get them up in the air.

That was almost a decade ago.

The thing is, too - high launch and low spin works well for guys who swing 100 MPH or so… but plug in 22°, 2000 RPM spin, and 125 MPH ball speed and look at the carry numbers here http://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/ and compare them to even 16° launch angle. I get an extra seven or eight yards.

So yes but no, @Mr. Desmond … because companies haven't actually made or truly "pushed" 12° drivers, 13° drivers, 14° drivers like TaylorMade is doing now. So yes, their fitters have tried to get people into higher lofts, but the manufacturers themselves have kept the CG back, because it improves "playability," and because consumers were not nearly as willing to consider lofting up, and if they did, the spin would be way too high with many other companies.