Thought ball was lost in water - dropped and hit another - then found original ball

[GeeksGoneBad]

Drivable par 4 I hit and had a little fade that *could* have ended up in a little creek that crosses right in front of the green, there's also some trees on the right that the ball could have hit and bounced anywhere

got up there and couldn't find my ball so I took a drop assuming it went in the water...

once crossing the bridge to the green I found my original ball - so I abandoned the dropped ball and played my original - much to my playing groups chagrins - they basically said that once I played the drop that I was abandoning the original but I was thinking of it like a provisinal?

what's the right call?

[Ernest Jones]

Did you declare the first ball as "lost" or did you clearly announce that you were playing a provisional? I "think" that is the distinction?

[GeeksGoneBad]

I did let everybody know that the ball was lost and that I was taking a drop assuming it went into the water - it was not a provisional, nor did I say "Provisional"

[Abu3baid]

We'll I guess that answers that question!

[GeeksGoneBad]

Sorry, I don't follow :(

I thought the original tee shot was good from the tee, but getting up there I could not find the ball - what should I have done?

[David in FL]

Drivable par 4 I hit and had a little fade that *could* have ended up in a little creek that crosses right in front of the green, there's also some trees on the right that the ball could have hit and bounced anywhere

got up there and couldn't find my ball so I took a drop assuming it went in the water...

once crossing the bridge to the green I found my original ball - so I abandoned the dropped ball and played my original - much to my playing groups chagrins - they basically said that once I played the drop that I was abandoning the original but I was thinking of it like a provisinal?

what's the right call?

Your buddies were right.   It sounds as if you weren't "virtually certain" that your original ball was in the water hazard.  In that case, you would have to proceed under the assumption that your ball was lost outside the hazard.  You should have then gone back to the tee, declared that you were hitting a provisional for a  possible lost ball and hit another ball.  You could then continue to play that ball provisionally up to the point where the original ball should have been.  In this case, you would have hit your second shot with the provisional into the green, then crossed the bridge and found your original ball beyond where you played that approach shot with the provisional.  You would have abandoned the provisional and continue to play the original ball.

Once you did play that dropped ball from the wrong place though, rule 20-7 requires that you finish the hole with it.......under penalty of 2-strokes , not one.

When in doubt, hit a provisional!

Did you declare the first ball as "lost" or did you clearly announce that you were playing a provisional? I "think" that is the distinction?

Had it been a provisional, he would have had to re-tee under stroke and distance.  By dropping outside the hazard and subsequently making a stroke at it, the original ball was abandoned under penalty and a new ball was put into play.

[GeeksGoneBad]

Thanks David for the great explanation!

and so just to clarify one statement (so I can learn) :) you said that if I wasn't sure that my ball was in the water that I should assume that it was NOT in the water? So in other words if you're not sure your ball is in the water don't take a drop?

Thanks for the help!

[David in FL]

Thanks David for the great explanation!

and so just to clarify one statement (so I can learn) :) you said that if I wasn't sure that my ball was in the water that I should assume that it was NOT in the water? So in other words if you're not sure your ball is in the water don't take a drop?

Thanks for the help!

Correct.

Under rule 26-1, in order to obtain relief from a water hazard, you must either find the ball in the hazard, or know or be virtually certain that the ball was lost in the the water hazard.

Just because it could be in the water hazard isn't enough.  Without knowledge or virtual certainty, you must proceed under rule 27-1 for a lost ball......taking stroke and distance.

And BTW, welcome to the forum!

[GeeksGoneBad]

Gotcha! thanks and thanks! :)

[Dormie1360]

Hi Geeks,

Couple of points.   Yes, if you are not sure the ball is in the hazard, (you do not have what is called "known or virtual certainty or KVC" you can not assume the ball is in the hazard.  If you don't have KVC, DECLARE a provisional and replay your stroke in case you can not the original ball.

If you go forward and look for your original ball, you can not go back and play a provisional.  It's too late.  The whole idea for allowing a provisional is to save time, so you must play it before you go forward to search for your original ball..

You are correct, if you are not sure the ball is in the hazard, you can not drop under the hazard rule.  One thing though, if you do drop it in this case, you can under Rule 20-6, correct this mistake and pick up your incorrectly dropped ball before you play a stroke with it.  So in other words, when you dropped the ball, if someone saw your original, you could pick up your dropped ball and proceed correctly with your original ball,.

Also, one clarification on the ruling for what your did,   If you dropped and played by the hazard, instead of replaying your stroke, you would have not only played from a wrong place, but have been deemed to have committed a Serious Breach because you gained a significant advantage by playing up by the hazard instead of back where you originally played the stroke.  In this case, you would have to abandon the ball you played incorrectly from the hazard, and correctly play under the lost ball rule.  This means go back to the tee.  You would be hitting 5 from the tee.

Hope I haven't confused you too much..  This rule comes up a lot here and is often misunderstood.

[Rulesman]

You should have then gone back to the tee, declared that you were hitting a provisional for a  possible lost ball and hit another ball.  You could then continue to play that ball provisionally up to the point where the original ball should have been.  In this case, you would have hit your second shot with the provisional into the green, then crossed the bridge and found your original ball beyond where you played that approach shot with the provisional.  You would have abandoned the provisional and continue to play the original ball.

Once you did play that dropped ball from the wrong place though, rule 20-7 requires that you finish the hole with it.......under penalty of 2-strokes, not one.

When in doubt, hit a provisional!

No. Once you have gone forward to search for the ball you may not play a provisional.

27-2 . Provisional Ball

a . Procedure

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds , to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1 . The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball , and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1 ); the original ball is lost .

By dropping the ball and playing it where he did, he was deemed to have proceeded under 27-1a (stroke and distance). But as you say, he played from a wrong place with a 2 stroke penalty.

However, with the distance gained this would be a Serious Breach with a DQ unless the error was corrected before playing from the next tee.

[David in FL]

No. Once you have gone forward to search for the ball you may not play a provisional.

27-2. Provisional Ball

a. Procedure

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.

By dropping the ball and playing it where he did, he was deemed to have proceeded under 27-1a (stroke and distance). But as you say, he played from a wrong place with a 2 stroke penalty.

However, with the distance gained this would be a Serious Breach with a DQ unless the error was corrected before playing from the next tee.

Didn't sound like he went forward to search for his ball......he certainly didn't cross the bridge over the hazard where the ball was subsequently found.

[Rulesman]

Didn't sound like he went forward to search for his ball......he certainly didn't cross the bridge over the hazard where the ball was subsequently found.

From the OP

Drivable par 4 I hit and had a little fade that *could* have ended up in a little creek that crosses right in front of the green ,

27-2a/1.5

Meaning of "Goes Forward to Search"

Q. Under Rule 27-2a , when is a player considered to have gone forward to search for the original ball such that a provisional ball cannot be played?

A. A player will be considered to have gone forward to search when he has proceeded more than a short distance towards the place where his original ball is likely to be. As the purpose of Rule 27-2a is to save time, the player is permitted to go forward a short distance before determining that it would save time to return promptly to play a provisional ball. As a guideline, a player should be considered to have proceeded more than a short distance, and therefore to have gone forward to search, if he has proceeded more than approximately 50 yards. However, this guideline does not preclude a player from playing a provisional ball when he has proceeded more than a short distance for another specific purpose, such as to retrieve a ball or a different club to play a provisional ball, or to confer with a referee. (Revised)

[David in FL]

From the OP

Drivable par 4 I hit and had a little fade that *could* have ended up in a little creek that crosses right in front of the green,

27-2a/1.5

Meaning of "Goes Forward to Search"

Q.Under Rule 27-2a, when is a player considered to have gone forward to search for the original ball such that a provisional ball cannot be played?

A.A player will be considered to have gone forward to search when he has proceeded more than a short distance towards the place where his original ball is likely to be. As the purpose of Rule 27-2a is to save time, the player is permitted to go forward a short distance before determining that it would save time to return promptly to play a provisional ball. As a guideline, a player should be considered to have proceeded more than a short distance, and therefore to have gone forward to search, if he has proceeded more than approximately 50 yards. However, this guideline does not preclude a player from playing a provisional ball when he has proceeded more than a short distance for another specific purpose, such as to retrieve a ball or a different club to play a provisional ball, or to confer with a referee. (Revised)

You're absolutely right. I went brain dead.

Once the ball wasn't found, he had to go back under stroke and distance.

[GeeksGoneBad]

Yup I did go forward :) sounds like I messed up a lot and what a good tee shot it actually was LOL

OK so I hit my tee shot and thought it was pretty good so I did not hit a provisional, I go forward to look for my ball but cannot find it - I don't know FOR SURE that it's in the water, so what I should have done is replay the tee shot (not a provisional because it's too late) and been hitting 4 off the tee? (1 stroke for the first lost ball, 2 stroke penalty, hitting 4)

do I have it right?

Now.... :) friendly game of golf that this was - what would be acceptable, because obviously going back to the tee and hitting another shot will upset the players behind us :) would it bee acceptable play to just allow an assumption that it went in the water?

[GeeksGoneBad]

Or should that be hitting 3 off the tee? 27-1 is one stroke plus distance - so after I searched for my ball and it was lost I should have gone back to the tee and been hitting 3 - yes?

Thanks for all the help in getting me to understand this one ;)

[David in FL]

Or should that be hitting 3 off the tee? 27-1 is one stroke plus distance - so after I searched for my ball and it was lost I should have gone back to the tee and been hitting 3 - yes?

Thanks for all the help in getting me to understand this one ;)

Correct.  You'd have been hitting 3 off the tee.

The real lesson to be gained here is, when in any doubt at all, hit the provisional.  In this case, you'd have found your ball after crossing the bridge and could have played your second shot to the green.

[luu5]

Did you declare the first ball as "lost" or did you clearly announce that you were playing a provisional? I "think" that is the distinction?

You do not declare anything lost, you just hit a new ball. Declaring ball lost has no meaning in the rules.