How difficult are PGA Tour course setups?

[David in FL]

Become a bit of a "I could do that" sort of thread, wasn't really the intention, I've just used me as an example of a half way ok golfer. It seems to me that it's all about distance on courses like Riviera and distance isn't that frightening. If anything I give the pros MORE credit than the tour. They don't need to be molly-coddled on courses that they can take apart. Give them a test - grow up the rough, dig 'proper' bunkers and make the courses test them. Make the week in week out courses really be the sort of place a mere mortal golfer would struggle to get round, because right now I don't think they generally are.

You realize that the courses the tour pros play on one week out of the year are "week-in-week-out" courses that are played by the rest of us the remainder of the year, right? Some of them aren't terribly difficult as they're normally set up for the members or general public, but make no mistake, many of them are extremely difficult.

[impactswing]

Most tour pros I play with swing 120 range, some swing 130 range, that's why they play minor pga tours, they havent learned short grass is key. While the avg is 113 range main tour, everyone of those guys has 120 in their bag for the long par 4's and par 5s. I play at sea level in Sfl, driver is usually 240/250 in air with roll out its 260 range unless it rained that day. I go anywhere else my driver is 5-10% longer. Sfl is one of worse areas to judge driver distance, sea level, near ocean, lots of rain, swampy courses. While my driver might get close to a decent spot on a long hole pros play, they hit 7irons where I hit 5hybrids or even a 4H. So Im a long senior, who can still kick it around scratch. Yet against a young pro, he's 40 yards longer off tee then hitting irons 2 to 3 clubs longer. Thats why a scratch golfer who would be close to my s/s has zero chance against real tour pros. Example 450 yard hole par 4, if I dont have wind or good bounce Im 200 to green hitting a 3H. The pro is 175 to 150 to green hitting 7i or a wedge. The sr tee may be 400 on the long holes so now Im at the 150 or 140 if Im playing sr tees. At the 150 Im hitting 7i like the pro at 175. Now you can have scratch golfers with my lenght, but most who are young in their 20's or 30's will be way longer than me. They just have bad course management or bad short games to be scratch and not a plus. So to put a typical scratch player on pro tips swinging only 100mph with 450 yard and longer par 4's at sea level is a joke. 7irons dont go 200 yards at sea level near the ocean. So you need that extra 30 to 50 yards off the tee that all pros have compared to what most scratch golfers typically hit. A scratch golfer is swinging a driver typically around 100mph pros are 115/125 mph Its night and day when you have a 100mph swing against even 115 let alone 125 mph The short pro is 30/50 yards pass you on tee shots and then 2 to 3 clubs longer every other club. So unless you have 115 s/s and can hiit 65% of fairways, you have no chance scoring on a pga tour track, zero chance.

[saevel25]

Most tour pros I play with swing 120 range, some swing 130 range, that's why they play minor pga tours, they havent learned short grass is key.

While the avg is 113 range main tour, everyone of those guys has 120 in their bag for the long par 4's and par 5s.

I play at sea level in Sfl, driver is usually 240/250 in air with roll out its 260 range unless it rained that day. I go anywhere else my driver is 5-10% longer.

Sfl is one of worse areas to judge driver distance, sea level, near ocean, lots of rain, swampy courses.

While my driver might get close to a decent spot on a long hole pros play, they hit 7irons where I hit 5hybrids or even a 4H.

So Im a long senior, who can still kick it around scratch. Yet against a young pro, he's 40 yards longer off tee then hitting irons 2 to 3 clubs longer.

Thats why a scratch golfer who would be close to my s/s has zero chance against real tour pros.

Example 450 yard hole par 4, if I dint have wind or good bounce Im 200 to green hitting a 3H. The pro is 175 yo 150 to green hitting 7i or a wedge.

The sr tee may be 400 on the long holes now Im st 150 or 140.

Im hitting 7i like the pro at 175.

Now you can have scratch golfers with my lenght, but most who are young in 20's or 30's will be way longer than me. They just have bad course management or bad short games to be scratch and not plus.

So to put a scratch player on pro tips with 450 yard and longer par 4's at sea level is a joke.

7irons dont go 200 yards at sea level near the ocean. So you need that extra 30 to 50 yards off the tee that all pros have compared to what scratch golfers typically hit.

A scratch golfer is swinging a driver typically around 100mph pros are 115/125 mph

Its night and day when you have a 100mph swing against even 115 let alone 125 mph

The pro is 30/50 yards pass you on tee shots and then 2 to 3 clubs longer every other club.

So unless you have 115 s/s and can hiit 65% of fairways, you have no chance scoring on a pga tour track, zero chance.

You mean even Corey Pavin? or how about Luke Donald, does he have 120 in him. You talk a mine fine game there, but you can't back it up man.

Average tour player is carrying the ball 275-280 yards. From flightscope numbers, that is an average ball speed of 164-165 mph.

Average clubhead speed is about 110-112 mph on the PGA tour. I am saying AVERAGE!!!, 33% of the PGA tour doesn't average over 280 yards off the tee.

Actually it is probably one of the best areas. Its standardizes everything, and soft courses mean you get to see your carry. Go to Texas during the summer and hit a low stinger drive. You'll get 200 yards of carry but 300+ yards of distance. I've almost hit 300 yards with a 3-wood in Ohio when we get a few weeks of drought. The course I play on gets hard as a rock out there, and I just try to hit a ball a ball about 15 yards in the air, and it just rolls forever.

For once you are close to the average on Driving Accuracy, its 61%. Once again you are off because even players like Jimmy Walker got away with only 52% accuracy on tour last year. Given looks like at least 50% is needed, but your giving Pro's way too much credit.

[MS256]

So unless you have 115 s/s and can hiit 65% of fairways, you have no chance scoring on a pga tour track, zero chance.

That statement makes no sense at all.

"Scoring"???  Anybody can score on any course.

"Scoring" well enough to beat the guys on Tour? Of course not. That's a given or we would all be out there.

[hopefulhacker]

One question:

What's this thing you guys are talking about... I think you to refer to it as "Roll"

Greetings from Ireland

[impactswing]

Here's an example on how good tour pros are, golf slinger just had one of their majors at one of courses I play all the time. Lots of young pros, everyone of them swings over 110mph and many 120. I play with quite a few of these local pros. Who won? A guy that made over 50% of his cuts on the big pga tour last year and still lost his card. Most of the kids on that mini minor league tour are plus 4 to 5. A guy falls off pga tour who is plus 8 range he walks away with that tours big event. Thats how good pga tour big tour pros are, the guys who cant keep their card are leagues better than the pros at the next level down.

[hopefulhacker]

I'm not sure how much this might figure into the "toughness" of most courses (since I have played that many) but on the longer courses I have played the back tee is very often not only farther back but offset from the next tee up. It requires a more precise shot and very often a shot that has to be worked right or left where the next tee up can be a straight or straighter shot.

On some of those holes that adds more difficulty to the hole than the added distance does.

I've never heard the story you refer to about scratch players not being able to break 100 on "PGA Tour courses". In fact I know people that have played some of those courses that played fairly well on them...Of course "fairly well" would mean a couple of mid to high 70s rounds and missing the cut if they had been playing in a Tour event.

I have heard the statement that most low handicap golfers "couldn't break 100" on some of the US Open tracks and setups (entirely different thing than the normal Tour event).

I've always joked that Tiger Woods couldn't play some of the courses I play because he would never be able to find his golf ball. Of course that is not accurate at all because what he would do is hit less than driver off of the tee on most of the holes and still score very well.

I think you may have misread my (far too long) post and taken that incorrectly.

Talking in averages and generalisations:

I would assume a scratch golfer (I am talking about a regular club golfer off 0, not a budding Amateur with hopes of Pro etc) would shoot the following on a regular Tour event if playing along side the Pro's on the same course.

Par: Almost never would this happen

Mid - High 70's: The scratch golfer would probably have had an exceptional round

80-85:  Quite a few would break into this with a good/v good round

85+: I think quite a lot would end up 85+ if they played averagely - poorly.

The "not breaking 100" was in reference to myself (HC 17)

I shot 87 yesterday at the course that held the Irish Open (off the white tees, 6,800 on the card, tees playing closer to 6,600 yesterday though) yesterday.

The tees for the Irish Open were 7,400 +, I think that extra yardage would push me up at least 18 strokes and leave me in the 105-110 region.

[chriskzoo]

Most course played on Tour are not "hard" per se, but many can be made difficult by pin placement and making the course hard so the ball runs out into the rough or off the greens.  I've played 3 or 4 courses that the pros play on (Cog Hill, Kapalua, Oakland Hills) and playing from distances I'm used to, I didn't find them more difficult to score on than the courses I play regularly - and getting some local knowledge by playing those "Tour" courses would probably have me score around the same as I usually do (though the greens at Kapalua are devilish with the grain).

[Nosevi]

You mean even Corey Pavin? or how about Luke Donald, does he have 120 in him. You talk a mine fine game there, but you can't back it up man.

Average tour player is carrying the ball 275-280 yards. From flightscope numbers, that is an average ball speed of 164-165 mph.

Average clubhead speed is about 110-112 mph on the PGA tour. I am saying AVERAGE!!!, 33% of the PGA tour doesn't average over 280 yards off the tee.

Actually it is probably one of the best areas. Its standardizes everything, and soft courses mean you get to see your carry. Go to Texas during the summer and hit a low stinger drive. You'll get 200 yards of carry but 300+ yards of distance. I've almost hit 300 yards with a 3-wood in Ohio when we get a few weeks of drought. The course I play on gets hard as a rock out there, and I just try to hit a ball a ball about 15 yards in the air, and it just rolls forever.

For once you are close to the average on Driving Accuracy, its 61%. Once again you are off because even players like Jimmy Walker got away with only 52% accuracy on tour last year. Given looks like at least 50% is needed, but your giving Pro's way too much credit.

+1

This all started with me saying that normal PGA course setups flatter the pros, I honestly think they do. I posted up my GC2 numbers just to show that the pros do hit the ball a long way...... but it's not a whole heap further than some amateur who's not been playing the game long can - 274 yards carry would probably do it on most holes they play, especially if you take out all the rough and let me lash at it :)

As it happens I do think the tour players are extremely good. All plus 8 and plus 9? No.

And here's my reasoning - it's simple logic.

Every year you get a new influx of fresh faced touring pros walk onto the tour and they will all be scoring pretty well - in the plus 8 range at least. What were they doing just months before? Playing college golf or on the amateur circuit most likely. So look at your college teams and the amateur circuit, is it choka with plus 8 and plus 9 players? Nope, in fact are there any amateurs in that range in the whole world? So what you're saying is guys that have generally played golf all their lives and got some of the best coaching through the college programs and played off plus 4 or plus 5 walk onto the tour and become plus 8 or plus 9 over night. Bearing in mind the law of diminishing returns in golf when it comes to handicaps, and what a difference there would be between a plus 4 and plus 8 player, I'd say that's unlikely. I'm saying that perhaps the courses they play on tour are not quite so hard as some make them out to be.

[iacas]

So, over there you'd have scratch potential if you can drive the ball 250 yards?

There's a difference between an actual "scratch golfer" in the real world (i.e. someone who is a 0.0-ish index), and the theoretical, mathematical "scratch golfer" used to help determine course ratings.

Most of the kids on that mini minor league tour are plus 4 to 5.

And most players on the PGA Tour are +5 or so. Very very very very very few are +6 let alone +7 or higher.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/the_numbers_game/calculating_the_handicap_indeces_of_the_pros

[impactswing]

Tour courses average 76 par ratings Average tour score 71 If you took top 10 of 20 scores considered the slope every guy on tour is around +8 The reason, you take out 50% of their high scores the avg goes from 71 to 69 or so Then slope and rating makes courses 76 Plus a hc is potential so its usually 1 below their average good rounds Someone did a hc analysis of tiger in 00 he was first pro to hit double digits Almost +11 his career year Pros are that good

[iacas]

Tour courses average 76 par ratings

Average tour score 71

If you took top 10 of 20 scores considered the slope every guy on tour is around +8

The reason, you take out 50% of their high scores the avg goes from 71 to 69 or so

Then slope and rating makes courses 76

Plus a hc is potential so its usually 1 below their average good rounds

Someone did a hc analysis of tiger in 00 he was first pro to hit double digits

Almost +11 his career year

Pros are that good

http://thesandtrap.com/b/the_numbers_game/calculating_the_handicap_indeces_of_the_pros

You don't even seem to understand how handicaps work. You left out the 96% multiplier, for example. Slope also begins to affect numbers as you move away from zero… in the opposite direction from what you might think (i.e. higher slope reduces handicap indexes).

[hopefulhacker]

And most players on the PGA Tour are +4 or so. Almost none are +6 let alone +7.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/the_numbers_game/calculating_the_handicap_indeces_of_the_pros

I don't how you can say that "almost none are +6 let alone +7" with such certainty.

Especially since this makes up a major part of the theory that was used.

PGA Tour courses don't have established ratings. Pros often play from tees used only in PGA Tour events, the rough is grown extra long and thick, and greens are sped and firmed up. Each of those changes has a dramatic effect on the course rating and slope, making it difficult to ascertain the true nature of a pro's handicap index. Still, we've used available numbers - they may be educated guesses - where no slope or course ratings were available.

[iacas]

I don't how you can say that "almost none are +6 let alone +7" with such certainty.  Especially since this makes up a major part of the theory that was used.

The estimates are reasonably good. And some courses have established ratings/slopes.

[hopefulhacker]

The estimates are reasonably good. And some courses have established ratings/slopes.

I'm eager to learn more about this, so apologies if this comes across as argumentative, it's not intended that way.

Of the courses used in that analysis, which are the ones with the established ratings/slopes?

And how accurate are these "established" ratings?  i.e are the the established ratings based on the tees used in the tour events and based on the green conditions during these tour events, or are they just course ratings for the courses when played of the back tips (which are generally less obv)?

[Nosevi]

I really do think you're either belittling the scratch player or there is even more difference in the handicapping system between what we call scratch and what you do. I am not a scratch player and you've seen my carry numbers on a good day (and in the dead of winter). I carry the ball about 270.... So you're saying the short pro will carry it about 310 in the air and then get some roll so call it 340 yards average for a short hitter on the PGA Tour. How far exactly do you think a long hitter on tour hits it?!?

Then a Tour pro is 2 to 3 clubs past me with the irons. Here's a couple of 8 irons from a lowly amateur (check the traj, bit high but I'm clearly not hitting 5 irons here:

So the pros are all launching 8 irons 210 yards? They aren't.

Look I think the pros are very, very good. Fantastic in fact. But I do not think they are nearly as good as you are saying they are, and nowhere near as good as the PGA Tour tries to hype them up to be. They mishit shots, they duff chips, they slice the odd drive, you just rarely see it on the coverage. Seriously, go on shot tracker, pick a pro near the middle of the field but above the cut line, and run through a tournament with him, shot by shot. Even off the fairway you'll see some shockers.

Regarding the handicaps of the pros, just look at the handicaps when they turned pro of guys who managed to stay there (ie didn't lose their card), it'll give at least an idea. Just taken at random:

Sergio Garcia turned pro off plus 5, not plus 8 as was said somewhere on the forum: http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid=487/index.html

People like Charl Schwartzel - plus 4 http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid=32014/index.html

Henrik Stenson - plus 4 http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid=2090/index.html

Rory Mcilroy who was on top of the world amateur rankings - plus 6 but this was unusually high - http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid=34024/index.html

Oliver Fisher - plus 4 http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid=34653/index.html

Justin Rose after his epic assault on the Open as an amateur - plus 3 http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid=1941/index.html

All these guys went onto the tour and were mixing it with the big boys straight away (although Justin struggled as a pro even if he oddly hadn't as an amateur ?!?!?) Anyway my point is, if a plus 4 player couldn't mix it on tour none of these guys would have done...... but they did........

[saevel25]

Look at the US Open. There are amateurs who are hanging with the the pro's in arguably the hardest set up in golf. I mean, if they were that good, then Amateurs wouldn't have a shot at even scratching the top 50. There's usually a few that make it to the weekend.

[Lihu]

Sorry to abandon the debate, guys, just been out playing a course that actually has rough. Pitifully short at this time of the year so I apologise but it'll grow back in the summer :)

(taken a couple of hours ago at my home track...)

The rough in your picture looks pretty tame, I could have found all my balls there.

Off to the right, that's rough.

This was the tame stuff, the 25' wall of marsh weeds was really bad. . .