Correct Score Card Help

[David in FL]

There is not a forward tee stroke hole table available yet. It's a document in progress by the committee that has not been made available to the membership. The course recently put in to effect the forward tee program and received approval for the new stroke holes for the forward tee's. In my opinion, it's a case of the cart is ahead of the horse. The committee has not finished putting together the forward tee program and the League Administrator wants to use the program back to the 1st match.

Update:  The League Administrator was made aware of the rules of golf that the matches stand as played. The League Administrator disregarded the determination of the committee and changed the match results to reflect the unpublished forward tee's stroke holes. He went back to every card (32 teams @ 5 weeks) and recalculated the matches using the unpublished forward tee stroke holes.

How ironic!!!!!  His team is in first place now :-)

I would quit the league, in writing, citing the League's refusal to abide by the USGA rules of golf.  I would encourage others to do the same and get together with those that do on Tuesday night for a game amongst yourselves.

If my ass was really chafed, I'd likely copy the USGA on my letter, knowing that a requirement for USGA course rating is that all club sanctioned events be conducted under the rules of golf.

[Golfer6760]

I would quit the league, in writing, citing the League's refusal to abide by the USGA rules of golf.  I would encourage others to do the same and get together with those that do on Tuesday night for a game amongst yourselves.

If my ass was really chafed, I'd likely copy the USGA on my letter, knowing that a requirement for USGA course rating is that all club sanctioned events be conducted under the rules of golf.

For now I will be patient and give the Pro & Committee time to rectify the situation. The USGA & the State Golf Association are well aware of the circumstances, rulings & decisions.

After this gets resolved or not, a letter to the club president will be written asking for the resignation of the League Administrator. That may be another battle due to politics, but we'll take one step at a time.

I would also like to see the USGA & the State Golf Association send the League Administrator & Club a letter explaining that he is in violation of the USGA rules and could possibly lose his status or the clubs status as a member in good standings.

[Dormie1360]

I was trying to think of why the USGA would be upset with your club.  The players played their matches by the rules of golf.  I hope the scores were posted.....if not that's another issue.

The committee decided to change the outcome of some of the matches which they shouldn't have.  They did not follow the guidance provided by the USGA, R34-3.  That was wrong.

I'm not sure the USGA would do anything further at this point.  They could send a warning concerning their GHIN membership, but I don't see that happening.  They were in compliance as far as the GHIN system is concerned.

How does your league administrator get his position?  I'd start there.  Just my humble opinion.

[Golfer6760]

So far the club & committee have not made a final decision as to which way to go. The club & committee acknowledge the USGA rule, but on the other hand agrees with the League Administrator. I/we are waiting to see how this all irons out. We already know the League Administrator has no love for the USGA or their decisions. ( I cannot write his quote in public) The club on the other hand knows they will be in violation of USGA rules if they allow the Administrator to continue the League with the changed results. IMO it's a no brainer to side with the ruling of the USGA. If the results do not get turned around and the matches stand as played I want the USGA to know and reprimand the club & committee for not abiding by & following USGA rules as an example.

The League Administrator is chosen by the President of the club. So are the Committee's. In fact, the President and the committee have authority over the Pro weather he stays employed or not.

I am eager to see if the Club, Committee & Administration choose politics or the USGA rules in the best interest of the membership.

What do you think should happen if the club, committee & league administration decides to ignore the Rules of Golf and make up their own rules????????????

[Golfer6760]

UPDATE:

So far nothing has been done & matches continue to get recalculated after the match has been completed & turned in won or lost.

I was told by the resident pro the committee will meet at the next monthly meeting to discuss & make a decision.

[David in FL]

UPDATE:

So far nothing has been done & matches continue to get recalculated after the match has been completed & turned in won or lost.

I was told by the resident pro the committee will meet at the next monthly meeting to discuss & make a decision.

They're continuing to hold matches without providing a correct stroke allocation table?!

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfer6760

UPDATE:

So far nothing has been done & matches continue to get recalculated after the match has been completed & turned in won or lost.

I was told by the resident pro the committee will meet at the next monthly meeting to discuss & make a decision.

They're continuing to hold matches without providing a correct stroke allocation table?!

That makes them idiots in my book.  If you are doing something wrong, and someone informs you of that fact, but you continue to do it wrong, then there is a disconnect that goes well beyond simple ignorance.  Ignorance can be educated, but you can't talk to stupid.

[David in FL]

That makes them idiots in my book.  If you are doing something wrong, and someone informs you of that fact, but you continue to do it wrong, then there is a disconnect that goes well beyond simple ignorance.  Ignorance can be educated, but you can't talk to stupid.

Agree,

I'd also say that now you've crossed the line to intentional gross misconduct in fulfilling the requirements of the position with which you've been entrusted.

[Golfer6760]

They have fixed the problem and now have the Forward Tee Stroke Holes on the Score Cards. So, players now know what holes they should be getting strokes on. That's one hurdle we're over.

In the meantime the Pro & League Administrator went back through all the cards of matches previously played for many weeks and re-stroked the holes and determined the matches won/lost by the scores on the card changing all the results of the League to date. The players who won instead of lost love the Pro. The players who lost are out of luck.

I debated the point with the Pro that at this course concessions "Gimmies" are the length of the pin. IMO he doesn't care and shakes his head and looks at me while I talk. I get the impression the resident professional thinks the spelling of his title in "God".

Last week a League member was told his match points were adjusted because the card was scored wrong even though the match results were agreed upon on the 18th hole.

And you want to know something? There's no place to complain & get results. The committee does what ever the Pro says and the USGA will only recite the rules & won't enforce the rules.

Best thing to do is quit and not play golf. Terrific solution Grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!

[Fourputt]

They have fixed the problem and now have the Forward Tee Stroke Holes on the Score Cards. So, players now know what holes they should be getting strokes on. That's one hurdle we're over.

In the meantime the Pro & League Administrator went back through all the cards of matches previously played for many weeks and re-stroked the holes and determined the matches won/lost by the scores on the card changing all the results of the League to date. The players who won instead of lost love the Pro. The players who lost are out of luck.

I debated the point with the Pro that at this course concessions "Gimmies" are the length of the pin. IMO he doesn't care and shakes his head and looks at me while I talk. I get the impression the resident professional thinks the spelling of his title in "God".

Last week a League member was told his match points were adjusted because the card was scored wrong even though the match results were agreed upon on the 18th hole.

And you want to know something? There's no place to complain & get results. The committee does what ever the Pro says and the USGA will only recite the rules & won't enforce the rules.

Best thing to do is quit and not play golf. Terrific solution Grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!

There are no enforcement officers in the USGA.  That isn't their job.  It's up to the individual players and clubs to follow the rules.  If they choose not to, there are always other clubs and courses.

I guess I was unusually lucky to join a public course men's tournament club that was self directed and self motivated.  The club even paid to send me to my first one day rules seminar.  I was already a rules geek, self-trained, and that just helped to reinforce my feeling that the rules area  key to tying the past and the future of the the game together.  I became the Men's Club Rules Chairman (and at first the only member of the rules committee).  Our tournaments are played by the Rules of Golf, and the pro shop on the course has absolutely nothing to do with managing our competitions aside from monitoring our pace of play (we have our own self enforced policy which is more strict than the course policy).

If I was put in your position, I would simply leave that course.  If I had to drive a half hour or 45 minutes to play, so be it.  No self-important golf pro is going to tell me that his rules take precedence over the rules that the USGA publishes.

[Golfer6760]

There are no enforcement officers in the USGA.  That isn't their job.  It's up to the individual players and clubs to follow the rules.  If they choose not to, there are always other clubs and courses.

I guess I was unusually lucky to join a public course men's tournament club that was self directed and self motivated.  The club even paid to send me to my first one day rules seminar.  I was already a rules geek, self-trained, and that just helped to reinforce my feeling that the rules area  key to tying the past and the future of the the game together.  I became the Men's Club Rules Chairman (and at first the only member of the rules committee).  Our tournaments are played by the Rules of Golf, and the pro shop on the course has absolutely nothing to do with managing our competitions aside from monitoring our pace of play (we have our own self enforced policy which is more strict than the course policy).

If I was put in your position, I would simply leave that course.  If I had to drive a half hour or 45 minutes to play, so be it.  No self-important golf pro is going to tell me that his rules take precedence over the rules that the USGA publishes.

Thanks Fourputt

I've belonged to this private club for 27 years and I have a lot of friends there. My decision is to finish out the League's season which ends on August 19th. The League is once a week for 9 holes of 2 man per team match play. The format is win/lose & points. I would walk away today, but this is the only time my 72 year old partner plays golf weekly. He looks forward to getting out on Tuesday for 9 holes then having dinner at the club. I couldn't walk away from him in the middle of the season. As to my partner caring about the rules, he said he could care less anymore, I just play for the enjoyment. Next season I've decided I will not return to the league for sure.

I still play at this club in the summer frequently during the week + weekends with some great groups of guys who run some excellent games of quota pools & Nassau's with groups of 20-30+ guys a few times a week. Lot's of fun and good golf. So, leaving the club is not one of my future thoughts.

As far as the Pro & Committee's. 99% of my play 3-4 days a week is with groups of guys not run by the club. I have not for many years participated in any Club run tournaments (4-ball, member/member/ club championship) where you have to pay to play your own club for chits (Pro Shop Credits) in the pro shop where Pro V1's sell for $49 per dozen :-o There's a Golfsmith a few miles down the road that has a larger selection goodies and the prices are in-line. I already have 100+ club logo shirts in the closet that I've never worn so who needs more.

As in this instance of the rules decisions, I'm still blown away by the resident pro for his lack of standing behind the correct rules decision. Goes to show you his job supersedes the rules of golf. It's a shame the PGA, USGA & MGA don't have an enforcement or decision committee for the playing members of each association. It's these groups of associations that it's the playing member who supports them, but the poor golfer gets no benefits in return. So far, these organizations answer to my situation (who I've written all of them) is "Quit the Club". That doesn't solve the problem. It sweeps it under the rug and breeds future cheaters IMO.

Maybe it's about time these organization who make and distribute the rules of golf who we the players support stand behind the player and defend them from the actions of the cheat. I won't hold my breath

[MS256]

They have fixed the problem and now have the Forward Tee Stroke Holes on the Score Cards. So, players now know what holes they should be getting strokes on. That's one hurdle we're over.

In the meantime the Pro & League Administrator went back through all the cards of matches previously played for many weeks and re-stroked the holes and determined the matches won/lost by the scores on the card changing all the results of the League to date. The players who won instead of lost love the Pro. The players who lost are out of luck.

I debated the point with the Pro that at this course concessions "Gimmies" are the length of the pin. IMO he doesn't care and shakes his head and looks at me while I talk. I get the impression the resident professional thinks the spelling of his title in "God".

Last week a League member was told his match points were adjusted because the card was scored wrong even though the match results were agreed upon on the 18th hole.

And you want to know something? There's no place to complain & get results. The committee does what ever the Pro says and the USGA will only recite the rules & won't enforce the rules.

Best thing to do is quit and not play golf. Terrific solution Grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!

I just read this thread for the first time. The Pro and League Administrator are morons.

In match play it goes way beyond gimmies. The entire strategy on each hole depends on where you stand against the opponent on that hole.

[Fourputt]

In match play it goes way beyond gimmies. The entire strategy on each hole depends on where you stand against the opponent on that hole.

This isn't an absolute, but it can be a definite factor.  The state of the match over all may also have some influence in how one chooses to play a hole, it may have a significant effect on club selection and risk management.  Any way you look at it, this is one of the worst cases of competition mismanagement I've seen.

The OP should print out this discussion and "accidentally" leave it on the pro's desk (with all identifying tags removed, of course).

[Golfer6760]

Well!!!!!!!!!!!

I was just notified by the Chair of the Committee that the match in question will stand as changed. At the meeting the Pro pleaded his case to the committee against the USGA ruling and the committee agreed with the Pro. I was told "Right or Wrong" the decision of the committee is final. The committee & Pro also agreed that all other matches that were changed after the fact prior to this one incident shall be returned to "As Played" status.

This was the kicker!!!!!!!!!  When I debated the decision to the Committee Chair I was told you need to "Go get a Hobby"

So, as the rules of golf go, IMO the PGA, USGA, MGA, Committee's & Players could care less about the USGA rules as they have all turned a deaf ear to this issue.

A lesson to be learned about unenforced rules & relying on honesty in any sport.

[Fourputt]

Well!!!!!!!!!!!

I was just notified by the Chair of the Committee that the match in question will stand as changed. At the meeting the Pro pleaded his case to the committee against the USGA ruling and the committee agreed with the Pro. I was told "Right or Wrong" the decision of the committee is final. The committee & Pro also agreed that all other matches that were changed after the fact prior to this one incident shall be returned to "As Played" status.

This was the kicker!!!!!!!!!  When I debated the decision to the Committee Chair I was told you need to "Go get a Hobby"

So, as the rules of golf go, IMO the PGA, USGA, MGA, Committee's & Players could care less about the USGA rules as they have all turned a deaf ear to this issue.

A lesson to be learned about unenforced rules & relying on honesty in any sport.

You can't blame the USGA or the PGA of America for not jumping on a single club.  It's not their responsibility tell a club how to manage a league - that doesn't really have anything to do with their mission.  It's also a stretch to put the blame on the sport for the club's refusal to follow the rules correctly.  The blame goes to the club and to the pro and nowhere else.  As I said earlier, if you have a big enough problem with it, then leave.  Otherwise this is turning into a nonproductive discussion.

[Golfer6760]

I drafted a letter of resignation last night effective the end of the season. I resigned from the League as of immediately. I will hand deliver the letter to the club on Monday.

It's sad I was given no choice but to resign the club I enjoyed playing at due to the people (Pro & Committees) who are supposed to stand by the rules of golf.

Nothing was solved & my resignation will not start a wave of resignations. They (Pro & Committee) will continue to disregard the rules of golf as long as revenue is up.

[flopster]

I drafted a letter of resignation last night effective the end of the season. I resigned from the League as of immediately. I will hand deliver the letter to the club on Monday.

It's sad I was given no choice but to resign the club I enjoyed playing at due to the people (Pro & Committees) who are supposed to stand by the rules of golf.

Nothing was solved & my resignation will not start a wave of resignations. They (Pro & Committee) will continue to disregard the rules of golf as long as revenue is up.

That's too bad, they initially mess up and when they get the correct ruling they obviously didn't like it (namely the pro) so they did what they wanted to anyways.

[MS256]

Thanks Fourputt

I've belonged to this private club for 27 years and I have a lot of friends there. My decision is to finish out the League's season which ends on August 19th. The League is once a week for 9 holes of 2 man per team match play. The format is win/lose & points. I would walk away today, but this is the only time my 72 year old partner plays golf weekly. He looks forward to getting out on Tuesday for 9 holes then having dinner at the club. I couldn't walk away from him in the middle of the season. As to my partner caring about the rules, he said he could care less anymore, I just play for the enjoyment. Next season I've decided I will not return to the league for sure.

I drafted a letter of resignation last night effective the end of the season. I resigned from the League as of immediately. I will hand deliver the letter to the club on Monday.

It's sad I was given no choice but to resign the club I enjoyed playing at due to the people (Pro & Committees) who are supposed to stand by the rules of golf.

Nothing was solved & my resignation will not start a wave of resignations. They (Pro & Committee) will continue to disregard the rules of golf as long as revenue is up.

Because of the first quote I would think long and hard before handing in my resignation (no matter how stupid I think the situation is). Some things like friendships are more important than expressing my personal indignations.

I once made a similar decision based on principle and I still regret it. Friends will likely still be there after the Pro and the current politics are long gone.