Ball in play, wrong-place

[Rulesman]

Can you give me an example of a situation in which a ball is lost, the player drops in the area where it was lost, plays from there with no correction and no adding a stroke and distance penalty (assuming that was even possible), could possibly not result in a DQing serious breach?

Player hit a screamer from the tee. It hits a tree or obstruction some 20 yards in front of him and it ricochets back, 30 yards behind him OOB. He drops the ball and plays from a couple of yards in front of the OOB margin. 3 extra strokes instead of S&D.; This does include the 'stroke' from S&D; plus 2 wrong place penalties.

But you haven't explained the significance of the word 'if'.

[turtleback]

Yes I can.  I've watched a player play a stroke, hit the ball off the toe of the club and only move it 30 feet, mostly to the right, but into deep native rough.  when he didn't find the ball, he dropped and played from outside of the deep grass, but still about 15 feet from the place he played from.  Definitely a wrong place, but just as definitely not a serious breach, as he was only about 5 feet forward from the previous spot.

Player hit a screamer from the tee. It hits a tree or obstruction some 20 yards in front of him and it ricochets back, 30 yards behind him OOB. He drops the ball and plays from a couple of yards in front of the OOB margin. 3 extra strokes instead of S&D.; This does include the 'stroke' from S&D; plus 2 wrong place penalties.

But you haven't explained the significance of the word 'if'.

[wadesworld]

I want to expand on this topic a bit.  In researching it some more for my debate in another forum, I realized that nowhere in the rules of golf that I can find does it say that a dropped or placed ball is not in play.

I've got a second part to this question, but to avoid confusing the issue, let's answer this part first.

Is a ball dropped or placed ever not in-play?

Note that 20-4 does not say that a ball incorrectly dropped or placed is not in-play:

Quote:

20-4 . When Ball Dropped Or Placed Is In Play

If the player’s ball in play has been lifted, it is again in play when dropped or placed.

A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed.

(Ball incorrectly substituted – see Rule 15-2 )

(Lifting ball incorrectly substituted, dropped or placed – see Rule 20-6 )

In fact, even if a drop does not conform to 20-2, there is nothing in 20-2 which says the ball is not in play.  20-2c lists when the ball must be re-dropped without penalty, but it does not say the ball is not in-play.

Furthermore, rule 20-6 gives us the authority to correct an error in a drop/place/substitution.  Such a rule is only necessary if the ball is in play.

I suppose the one caveat is a dropped or placed ball is not in-play until it has come to rest.

[ColinL]

The decision says the player  incurs the stroke and distance penalty plus the 2 stroke penalty.  So yes, having hit the ball the player can go back to the previous spot, (i.e., belatedly follow the rule).

But we re talking of the situaton where he does not go bck to the previous spot and rehit.  So if he does not, how does he, or an official consulted later for a ruling, add "stroke and distance" to his score?  The only way that penalty can be incorporated in his score is if he actually goes back and re-hits.  Otherwise what is his score, a 83 plus a stroke and distance?

Can you give me an example of a situation in which a ball is lost, the player drops in the area where it was lost, plays from there with no correction and no adding a stroke and distance penalty (assuming that was even possible), could possibly not result in a DQing serious breach?  IOW it is virtually by definition a serious breach because it puts the player in a position of not having a valid score and no way of adjusting the score to make it valid, since do do so required an action (the stroke and distance penalty) that cannot be retroactively fixed.

How can a player who has made it impossible to have a valid score not be guilty of a serious breach?  And if there was not a serious breach, how do you determine his score for that hole?

In addition to the examples which have brought about your surrender, you seem to have missed my earlier  mention of a player whose ball rebounds off something and ends up behind him (Post #9)

[Rulesman]

[turtleback]

In addition to the examples which have brought about your surrender, you seem to have missed my earlier  mention of a player whose ball rebounds off something and ends up behind him (Post #9)

What??  You want your own flag?  OK.

Better?

[wadesworld]

post #21

Quote:

Is a ball dropped or placed ever not in-play?

FourPutt?  Rulesman?  No opinion?

[Rulesman]

1) If the ball was not in play before being placed or dropped.

2) If there is no intention to put it into play. eg 20-2a/8

[ColinL]

What??  You want your own flag?  OK.

Better?

Aaaah.  How nice. :)

[wadesworld]

1) If the ball was not in play before being placed or dropped.

2) If there is no intention to put it into play. eg 20-2a/8

I'm not sure I understand #1.  Do you mean a case such as my ball is lying in the fairway.  For some unknown reason, I decide to drop another ball without touching the original.  Since the second ball was not in-play and the first ball was never lifted, the second ball does not become the ball in play?  If so, that certainly makes sense.

[wadesworld]

Argh…editing time limit expired…let me rescind my "that makes sense" comment:

Continuing with the scenario of a second ball dropped when the original ball is lying in-play…….

Definition of Ball in Play says:

Quote:

A ball is “ in play ” as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground . It remains in play until it is holed , except when it is lost , out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted , whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play .

Definition of substituted ball says:

Quote:

A “ substituted ball ” is a ball put into play for the original ball that was either in play , lost , out of bounds or lifted.

And rule 20-6 says:

Quote:

20-6 . Lifting Ball Incorrectly Substituted, Dropped Or Placed

A ball incorrectly substituted , dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules but not played may be lifted, without penalty, and the player must then proceed correctly.

The definition of substituted ball makes it sound like if you were to drop another ball while your original ball was still in play, the incorrectly substituted ball would become the ball in-play.  You would however, have the opportunity to correct the error under 20-6.  In fact, that's no different than the original scenario.  If your ball cannot be found but does not meet the definition of a "lost ball" it is still in-play, but if you drop another one, the new ball becomes the ball in-play the moment it is dropped, whether in the right place or wrong place.

Apologies for beating this poor horse, but discussing this has been quite a revelation for me, so I want to be sure I get it 100% correct.

[wadesworld]

Quote:

1) If the ball was not in play before being placed or dropped

Ah wait…I think a light bulb just went on.  You mean if a ball has not been put into play from the teeing ground.  In that case, any drop would not put a ball into play, only a stroke would.

Sorry for having to go around the world to arrive at that answer.

[Rulesman]

You seem to have it

Re your case re dropping a second ball when you already have a ball on the fairway: if you were just checking your identification marks on the second ball and accidentally dropped it, it would not become the ball in play as there was no intention to put it into play

[wadesworld]

Just following up on this thread.  I did email the USGA to see if there were any additional situations when a dropped/placed ball would not be in play.

The email specifically prohibits me from pasting the text of the response, so I'll just summarize:

Rulesman nailed it.  The two situations when a dropped/placed ball is not in play are:

1)  When a ball has not yet been put into play from the teeing ground

2)  When the player had no intention of putting the ball into play.

Two additional clarifications came out of which I was not aware:

1)  The ball is in play as soon as it leaves the player's hand

2)  It is not necessary for the ball to come to rest to be in-play

[turtleback]

Two additional clarifications came out of which I was not aware:

1)  The ball is in play as soon as it leaves the player's hand

2)  It is not necessary for the ball to come to rest to be in-play

Those are interesting but I find them a little confusing.  What if the ball is dropped (in play as soon as it laves the player's hand) but then it rolls too far to be a legal drop and has to be re-dropped.  Was it in play and then out of play?

[wadesworld]

Those are interesting but I find them a little confusing.  What if the ball is dropped (in play as soon as it laves the player's hand) but then it rolls too far to be a legal drop and has to be re-dropped.  Was it in play and then out of play?

No, it was always in-play.  However, the rules require you to re-drop the ball in that situation.  This was one of my misconceptions too.  I thought a drop which violated one of the provisions of 20-2(c) invalidated the drop.  However, if you look, you'll see nowhere under 20-2(c) does it say a drop is invalid.  It simply gives you a list of situations under which you MUST re-drop the ball.

The same is true if you drop in wrong place, drop when you're supposed to place, place when you're supposed to drop, or substitute a ball when you're not allowed to do so.  The ball is still in-play in those situations, but 20-6 gives you the opportunity to correct the mistake before you play the ball.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Two additional clarifications came out of which I was not aware:

1)  The ball is in play as soon as it leaves the player's hand

2)  It is not necessary for the ball to come to rest to be in-play

Those are interesting but I find them a little confusing.  What if the ball is dropped (in play as soon as it laves the player's hand) but then it rolls too far to be a legal drop and has to be re-dropped.  Was it in play and then out of play?

Just because the ball rolls to place which is not allowed, that doesn't take it out of play.  Definition of ball in play :

Quote:

Ball In Play

A ball is “ in play ” as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground . It remains in play until it is holed , except when it is lost , out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted , whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play .

There is no differentiation between a ball dropped correctly or incorrectly.  Both are in play the moment they leave the player's hand, and they remain in play until their status meets the requirement for taking them out of play.