Country Club culture

[imsys0042]

My place just sent out their State of the Club email for the year and it was an eye-opener. After August, they lost 50 golf members and they openly bemoaned that this is the worst attitrion they have ever seen. This is despite the course being the best that it has been in many years. The new superitendents have really done wonders. They also asked the head chef to resign and from my own dealings with them, they were very upset about the pool incident where the staff didn't help with enforcing the rules and openly stated that they weren't enforcing them. My wife is on one of the committees and attendance at most events is way down this year. Participation in golf events is also way down. Clearly something is amiss here. Although I wanted to take a minute to say thank you to all the people who responded. Even the people critical of me. My wife and I decided to stick it out and see what happens. And unless someone hits me with a golf club I am going to not complain and see what happens. Unfortunately the local club management never got back to me after I escalated. However their response was to be overly nice (it was obvious), which is not really what I wanted. But unfortunately it's what is at the heart of the issue, it's easier to try and mollify someone than to put something in place to enforce the standing rules. I'd prefer to not have things swept under the rug, however there hasn't been anything unpleasant as a result. I am trying to think it through and not see the place in a bad light. Anyone would end up being hypersensitive to further issues after some of the things that have happened so I'm going to try and look at things in a new light next year. Near the end of good weather I was talking to someone at it who's a member there as well and he mentioned that it was actually better now and that's why he joined. Now knew a couple of members for years but felt that there was a bad attitude problem that permeated the place. But he thought it was better now. So I guess the thing to do is chill out a but and see what happens next year. Despite losing a lot of people it's still a large membership and I'm going to see if i can find my niche. Thanks again for all the responses and Happy New Year! I've been trolling through the equipment section for some club ideas and there are a lot of nice people here. Too bad very few are close to me in Pittsburgh!

[rkim291968]

With mass departure, maybe they got the picture.  Good luck!

Saw Caddyshack recently.   I watched it many years ago when I knew nothing about golf.  Watching it again after 5 years of playing golf, the movie was whole lot different that I remembered.   Saw a little bit of that in this thread.

I voted "nice" on this poll.   Most fellow golfers in my club are very nice, with good golf etiquette.   There are a few bad apples but they are outnumbered by the rest and put up a good appearance.

[ditchparrot19]

Can't see myself ever joining a club that has tennis, a swimming pool, bocce ball, croquet, that game where you push discs onto a triangular playing surface with long sticks, etc. I need all of the focus to be on golf.

[imsys0042]

Ok...this is actually something positive, mostly.   But there was a big incident at my place today and I kind of feel the need to get it off my chest.  It was really upsetting.

I'm the OP and I originally posted that I'd been having a lot of issues with my club.   This year I decided to stop carrying all this baggage about the place and really spend a lot of time there and get to know people.   It's been going better, but today could have been a huge derailment.

I had the second tee time this morning.   I decided to walk, which is rare there.   I walked down to the tee and saw a cart going away from the second tee.   I teed off.  As I was walking down the fairway a twosome came up.   I finished hole 1, and then teed off on hole 2.   I had to wait 4-5 minutes because the grounds crew was doing work around the green and could see people on the tee behind me and then the first green.   So I felt like I was holding people up but waited, hit and then would see how the pace went with me walking.   I had a terrible lie in the bunker it took me two to get out and then pitch down the fairway, so i was struggling.

Anyway. The twosome behind me went out of their way to buzz the third tee box while I was hitting and glare at me.   I hit, went to the green and was going to wave them thru (although they didn't know that yet).   They drove down and the driver aggressively informed me that they were playing through on the next hole.   Not ask, they just flat old told me.    I wasn't upset, yet, but just said "Ok, Fine".   As they were driving back they yelled "f****** c***s***** holding up the whole f****** course.

I was really floored.   From my perspective I had a hole where I struggled and then was on the third hole and they are yelling that at me.   I hit on the next hole, went to my ball and then waited for them to hit.   They drove over to say something to me and began berating me for being slow and that I had jumped ahead of them.   They had the first tee time on the course.   And then complained how I was holding them up.

I said that I didn't mean to jump in front of them and I wanted to walk and take my time so there's no issue with them going through.   Which the driver said "Well that's what we are doing!".   I then said that I heard what they said and that's not right.   Their response was "so what if I said that, you're holding us up".  After some more useless back and forth, they drove on and I continued.   The only other thing I distinctly remember is that I rolled my eyes and said "I'm so tired of the members here with crap like this".   Their response --  "Well I'm sure the members are tired of your s***"

It basically really shook me up.   Confrontation like that, when I'm alone, is really stressful.   The attitude mirrors several incidents there.   People feel like they can berate, yell or whatever and there are no repercussions.   Last year I had someone yell at me for not moving fast enough, when I had a foursome in front of me that wouldn't let me play through.   Ugh.

Anyway, the pro shop people could tell I was shaken up and I told them what happened and sat down for a few and then hopped on a cart for the back nine.   When I got back, both the Director of Golf and the General manager spoke with me and were very sympathetic and sorry that that happened.   I didn't expect that since it's an argument between 2 members and doesn't involve the club, aside from it happening on the course.   I am really impressed that they took the time to look into the issue and that they were so understanding/gracious with me.

Apparently what had happened is that they were a twosome, a third person hopped on with them and then just went to the tee and didn't play with them.   That was the person I saw, and I thought that was part of the group in front of me.   The twosome got angry like I was jumping in front of them and then they just got madder because I was stuck waiting on the second hole and got behind.   They thought I was the person who jumped on their time and then split.    And they didn't put together that I saw someone in front of me and that I thought I was in position.

It really would have been me just thinking that they were not nice people until they yelled and swore at me.   I can't believe that.   There's no reason that I wouldn't have waived them through, and I did when they came down and copped an attitude by speaking with me.   Jeez.   I just don't know what's wrong with some people, but I have to say that I feel better about the club because they don't like something like that happening and people not being able to feel comfortable.

So something good out of something bad.

[rkim291968]

It does not sound like it's a nice place to be a member.   I thought country club is a community where people get out of their way to get along.   I belong to a public golf club and there is a sense of being in a community and members go out of their way to be nice to each other.   When a new member joins,"members are nice" is typically what I hear from one.

[imsys0042]

It does not sound like it's a nice place to be a member.   I thought country club is a community where people get out of their way to get along.   I belong to a public golf club and there is a sense of being in a community and members go out of their way to be nice to each other.   When a new member joins,"members are nice" is typically what I hear from one.

My way of explaining it is that there is a percentage of people there who will really give you a hard time if they don't get their way on anything.   However the remaining people are nice, and the people who work there are very nice.   But that strikes me as well.   You see, up to when they swore at me I would have thought that they were not nice people and being in a closed environment like a club you chalk it up to the people you aren't going to like.   When they swore at me, all of a sudden your point is exactly correct.   These are people who I am going to run into, and people who are in the same closed environment.   Why escalate like that when you are going to run into me next Wednesday, or even inside?

My take is also that among the members, the percentage is higher than normal for people who would give you a hard time.

[RickK]

I am a member at a country club now and have been a member of several other clubs in different towns and states.  Every club I have been a member at have one ore more cliques of members. Newcomers to the club often times are not immediately accepted into those cliques.  It can be very awkward.  If someone is the least bit timid about trying to fit in...well, it can be even more awkward.

It helps to know someone who is a member of a new club when you join.  Someone who has already been "accepted", if you will, into one of the cliques of the club.  If you don't know anyone, then you have to become very observant of who is and who isn't.  The club I belong to now...knew hardly anyone who was a member there.  One of the first things I did was join the MGA.  You meet lots of guys in the MGA.  Play in the MGA events.  You may not be accepted into a clique immediately but if you become an active participant, you probably will.  Unfortunately, sometimes at clubs, you have to "work" at being accepted.  I know, I wasn't immediately.  I did not let it bother me.  I would go to the driving range on Saturday mornings when it was busy, and it is amazing how far a "Hi, how are you today?" goes at meeting people.  Find out who the officers are in the MGA, talk to them on the range.  If you did not play with them and you see them after your round, ask them how their round was.

Now, with all that said, I will relate to one experience I had not that long ago.  I was a member at a club for over 20 years.  I was even MGA Tournament Chairman and MGA President.  Yet, there was a clique of guys (some older, some younger than me).  They were just one of the cliques at this club but they were very vocal about affairs of the club and the MGA.  Every year, one of them would put together an out of town weekend trip consisting of about 24 guys.  In all the years I was at that club, I was never once invited to go.  Guys who were in the group would ask me if I was going and my response every year was the same..."I have not been invited."  They guy who ran it most times acted like he did not know I even existed.  Well, lo and behold, I leave the club but still play there frequently.  This year, I got a call from one of the guys in the clique..."Hey, are you interested on going to XXXXXX on the golf trip this year with the guys?  The group is not full and your name came up that your handicap would fit nicely into the group."  My response was , "Dang, did XXXXX die and someone else is running it now?  And, no, thanks for asking but I will pass."

I enjoy being member of a country club.  I refuse to let anyone make me feel unwelcome without letting them know about it.  That is just my nature.  I make friends easily but my wife does not. Unfortunately, she view membership in the country club as "his thing" and she does not like to participate.  Wish it were not so but I have come to accept that also.

So, to the OP, before you leave the club...I would go back there with the idea that you are going to be accepted and make it your home club with determination.

[RickK]

Ok...this is actually something positive, mostly.   But there was a big incident at my place today and I kind of feel the need to get it off my chest.  It was really upsetting.

I'm the OP and I originally posted that I'd been having a lot of issues with my club.   This year I decided to stop carrying all this baggage about the place and really spend a lot of time there and get to know people.   It's been going better, but today could have been a huge derailment.

I had the second tee time this morning.   I decided to walk, which is rare there.   I walked down to the tee and saw a cart going away from the second tee.   I teed off.  As I was walking down the fairway a twosome came up.   I finished hole 1, and then teed off on hole 2.   I had to wait 4-5 minutes because the grounds crew was doing work around the green and could see people on the tee behind me and then the first green.   So I felt like I was holding people up but waited, hit and then would see how the pace went with me walking.   I had a terrible lie in the bunker it took me two to get out and then pitch down the fairway, so i was struggling.

Anyway. The twosome behind me went out of their way to buzz the third tee box while I was hitting and glare at me.   I hit, went to the green and was going to wave them thru (although they didn't know that yet).   They drove down and the driver aggressively informed me that they were playing through on the next hole.   Not ask, they just flat old told me.    I wasn't upset, yet, but just said "Ok, Fine".   As they were driving back they yelled "f****** c***s***** holding up the whole f****** course.

I was really floored.   From my perspective I had a hole where I struggled and then was on the third hole and they are yelling that at me.   I hit on the next hole, went to my ball and then waited for them to hit.   They drove over to say something to me and began berating me for being slow and that I had jumped ahead of them.   They had the first tee time on the course.   And then complained how I was holding them up.

I said that I didn't mean to jump in front of them and I wanted to walk and take my time so there's no issue with them going through.   Which the driver said "Well that's what we are doing!".   I then said that I heard what they said and that's not right.   Their response was "so what if I said that, you're holding us up".  After some more useless back and forth, they drove on and I continued.   The only other thing I distinctly remember is that I rolled my eyes and said "I'm so tired of the members here with crap like this".   Their response --  "Well I'm sure the members are tired of your s***"

It basically really shook me up.   Confrontation like that, when I'm alone, is really stressful.   The attitude mirrors several incidents there.   People feel like they can berate, yell or whatever and there are no repercussions.   Last year I had someone yell at me for not moving fast enough, when I had a foursome in front of me that wouldn't let me play through.   Ugh.

Anyway, the pro shop people could tell I was shaken up and I told them what happened and sat down for a few and then hopped on a cart for the back nine.   When I got back, both the Director of Golf and the General manager spoke with me and were very sympathetic and sorry that that happened.   I didn't expect that since it's an argument between 2 members and doesn't involve the club, aside from it happening on the course.   I am really impressed that they took the time to look into the issue and that they were so understanding/gracious with me.

Apparently what had happened is that they were a twosome, a third person hopped on with them and then just went to the tee and didn't play with them.   That was the person I saw, and I thought that was part of the group in front of me.   The twosome got angry like I was jumping in front of them and then they just got madder because I was stuck waiting on the second hole and got behind.   They thought I was the person who jumped on their time and then split.    And they didn't put together that I saw someone in front of me and that I thought I was in position.

It really would have been me just thinking that they were not nice people until they yelled and swore at me.   I can't believe that.   There's no reason that I wouldn't have waived them through, and I did when they came down and copped an attitude by speaking with me.   Jeez.   I just don't know what's wrong with some people, but I have to say that I feel better about the club because they don't like something like that happening and people not being able to feel comfortable.

So something good out of something bad.

I'm confused. And, I reread you post a couple of times.   Did you actually cut in front of the group?  Was it your tee time or theirs?  Do they not have a starter?  Was the group on the tee box when you teed off?  And, glad the club management was willing to hear the story.  They should have.  That is their job...to assist members and make the feel welcome.

[imsys0042]

RickK -   I'd agree with a lot of what you say.   Very clique-y and hard to break in, and it's a club that has no membership criteria other than you can pay the dues. So I didn't know anyone and I found it intimidating to get involved.   Other people have expressed that as well.   That said, I view this as a minor setback.  I made up my mind to stick with it for now.   The club professional, director of golf and general manager all took an interest in this and wanted to help make the club somewhere I feel comfortable and that's a big positive and a better feeling than I've had.

I'm sticking with it.   Although it's such a shocking experience I felt the need to vent or get it off my chest.   But the bottom line is that the three people who took the time to help me today did a lot more for how I feel about the club than the two idiots who tried to knock me down.

[imsys0042]

I'm confused. And, I reread you post a couple of times.   Did you actually cut in front of the group?  Was it your tee time or theirs?  Do they not have a starter?  Was the group on the tee box when you teed off?  And, glad the club management was willing to hear the story.  They should have.  That is their job...to assist members and make the feel welcome.

No starter.   Check in at the pro shop.    Oddly enough I did technically cut in front, but it was an understandable mistake.   They had the first time, I had the second.   I got to the first tee and saw people playing in front of me, so I assumed it was my turn.

What had happened is that a third person was supposed to play with them and joined their tee time.   He decided to cut them off and go to the first tee early.   So that third person was in front of me.   Now based on what they knew at the time, they had a right to be mad because they should have been first, and I was stuck waiting in the fairway and had a slow hole.   However they started getting angry with me from the first time I was near them, and they never asked for any explanation or stated "We had the first time, we don't think you as in the right position" (or anything like that).

So I didn't think I was cutting anyone off and thought I was in the right place.   When they told me that they had the first time and were not the third group I said "I didn't mean to cut you off.   Even if I was first off, I had a couple of slow holes so I'd let you thru".   Their response, priceless, was "That's what I told you I was doing, and that's what we are doing".

[caniac6]

Op, did you have a cell phone? I would have called the pro shop, and reported the confrontation. I would have asked the pro to come out and settle it. Even if you were holding up the whole course, the other guy should have been polite, and asked if they could go through. That being said, I probably would have told those guys what they could do to themselves. Also, I believe I would get as far away from that club as soon as possible.

[rkim291968]

Originally Posted by imsys0042

No starter.   Check in at the pro shop.    Oddly enough I did technically cut in front, but it was an understandable mistake.   They had the first time, I had the second.   I got to the first tee and saw people playing in front of me, so I assumed it was my turn.

What had happened is that a third person was supposed to play with them and joined their tee time.   He decided to cut them off and go to the first tee early.   So that third person was in front of me.   Now based on what they knew at the time, they had a right to be mad because they should have been first, and I was stuck waiting in the fairway and had a slow hole.   However they started getting angry with me from the first time I was near them, and they never asked for any explanation or stated "We had the first time, we don't think you as in the right position" (or anything like that).

So I didn't think I was cutting anyone off and thought I was in the right place.   When they told me that they had the first time and were not the third group I said "I didn't mean to cut you off.   Even if I was first off, I had a couple of slow holes so I'd let you thru".   Their response, priceless, was "That's what I told you I was doing, and that's what we are doing".

In one of my former home courses, the tee time rule is thus.   If you are not there 15 mins prior, you can lose your tee time to the group behind if they are ready to tee off.   I don't know about your club's policy on this.   Something you can check for future reference.

Common courtesy is, if you suspect someone cut you off, you ask first before getting ugly with the person.

[imsys0042]

In one of my former home courses, the tee time rule is thus.   If you are not there 15 mins prior, you can lose your tee time to the group behind if they are ready to tee off.   I don't know about your club's policy on this.   Something you can check for future reference. Common courtesy is, if you suspect someone cut you off, you ask first before getting ugly with the person.

I've had a couple of people shoot in ahead of me, but 95% of the time when you see people on the tee or if there is some confusion, people ask "what is your tee time?" And people follow that pretty well. If someone is early and they see you, they wave you down to make sure people go out in the right order. We only have starters on the weekend. Once they said they had the first time, I responded with "I didn't mean to cut you off. Of course you can play through". Although by that point they were in my face.

[imsys0042]

Op, did you have a cell phone? I would have called the pro shop, and reported the confrontation. I would have asked the pro to come out and settle it. Even if you were holding up the whole course, the other guy should have been polite, and asked if they could go through. That being said, I probably would have told those guys what they could do to themselves. Also, I believe I would get as far away from that club as soon as possible.

I did have a phone. But I didn't think to call it in. The altercation was 2 minutes where I was right next to them. The swearing that they did was from a distance. Regardless, I felt better off letting them thru even if they had a later time than me. Who wants people breathing down their neck like them? I also had a number of things I would have liked to have said, but then if it goes beyond the three of us, then all I would have done is escalate it and done something wrong myself. Also, being just a little petty, I did tattle on them. They rode their cart all over the place. The course is recovering from water damage and some flooding and they felt entitled to ride where they wanted to...

[newtogolf]

It does not sound like it's a nice place to be a member.   I thought country club is a community where people get out of their way to get along.   I belong to a public golf club and there is a sense of being in a community and members go out of their way to be nice to each other.   When a new member joins,"members are nice" is typically what I hear from one.

All clubs are different but in both I've belonged to, pace of play is taken very seriously.   People don't pay thousands of dollars for annual dues to get stuck behind slow players, so you will tend to see the worst of people when someone is holding up the entire course.  In my club, the two guys would have been suspended for at least two weeks for their conduct if not kicked out of the club permanently.

Sounds like @imsys0042 is just a victim of poor circumstances and took heat that should have been directed at another member.

[imsys0042]

All clubs are different but in both I've belonged to, pace of play is taken very seriously.   People don't pay thousands of dollars for annual dues to get stuck behind slow players, so you will tend to see the worst of people when someone is holding up the entire course. Sounds like @imsys0042 is just a victim of poor circumstances and took heat that should have been directed at another member.

I freely admit I was slow on the second hole. I drove into a bunker, had a terrible lie and hacked it out over three total shots to materially advance it. And that was after waiting 4-5 for the green to clear. I was walking instead of riding and I think part of the problem that despite cart path only, they were also riding to their balls. So they were playing fast thanks to that. However once I let them pass, I let one more single through and then two holes later I was waiting every shot. So overall my pace was good for the round. I kept up fine after the bad second hole.

[newtogolf]

I freely admit I was slow on the second hole. I drove into a bunker, had a terrible lie and hacked it out over three total shots to materially advance it. And that was after waiting 4-5 for the green to clear. I was walking instead of riding and I think part of the problem that despite cart path only, they were also riding to their balls. So they were playing fast thanks to that. However once I let them pass, I let one more single through and then two holes later I was waiting every shot. So overall my pace was good for the round. I kept up fine after the bad second hole.

Everyone is entitled to a few bad holes, if you were slow over the next 2 or 3 holes they might have had a reason to be upset but that still wouldn't justify how they acted towards you.  I've also found that singles get very little love, usually because they play faster than groups in front who feel pushed even when they are keeping pace with the group in front.

[imsys0042]

Everyone is entitled to a few bad holes, if you were slow over the next 2 or 3 holes they might have had a reason to be upset but that still wouldn't justify how they acted towards you.  I've also found that singles get very little love, usually because they play faster than groups in front who feel pushed even when they are keeping pace with the group in front.

Yeah, I agree with that about singles. Last year I waved a guy up and he declined and then sat 40-50 yards behind me on every green. Not a great feeling. Unless it's someone with room in front and they won't wave me thru, I generally tell people that I'm in no rush so don't feel pushed. I play by myself a lot of weekday mornings and run into all types of situations.