Value of Keeping Your Head Down? (Or Not)

[HeadDown]

Huh?  I see no hostilities, just discussion @HeadDown

The guy above you just ragged on me for being an 11 handicap.  I've been busy working.

[Ernest Jones]

I'll be leaving now... I am this place is hostile to anything that doesn't pertain to my your theories.

Good Day Mates...

Fixed that for ya.

Not surprised at this outcome, it fits the usual pattern.

I'm interested in feedback on the application we have conceived.

Just wanted some feedback...

Apparently you are pretty selective about what kind of feedback you want.

I know it works because I am the ONLY one who has ever tested the device

Say what? Lol.

[mvmac]

Huh?  I see no hostilities, just discussion @HeadDown

Correct @HeadDown , we're just giving our take, based on what we've seen with many golfers and the research 5SK has done.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Huh?  I see no hostilities, just discussion @HeadDown

The guy above you just ragged on me for being an 11 handicap.  I've been busy working.

Phil can be abrupt.  But what he is suggesting, and others, is that the "head down" advice is usually a bandaid approach.  The head is moving due to other issues in the swing.  Correcting those other issues, will eliminate erroneous head movement.

[iacas]

I'll be leaving now...this place is hostile to anything that doesn't pertain to your theories.

What theories? My experiences and knowledge as an instructor?

The guy above you just ragged on me for being an 11 handicap.  I've been busy working.

He asked if you were an 11 handicap. Then, yes, he hinted that perhaps you don't know as much about the golf swing as an instructor.

---

Look, @HeadDown , the first Key in "5 Simple Keys®" is "Steady Head."

Golfers achieve a "steady head" not by thinking "keep my head steady" but by working on the root causes of why their head is moving around too much. The head is a reference point.

Head movement is rarely, in my experience, a result of a player willfully doing something, except players who have heard "keep your head down" and trying to keep their head down, usually to the detriment of their golf swing.

In my opinion, based on the details laid out above (namely the fact that the image doesn't even appear until ~0.2 seconds after impact, while good golfers seem to be moving their heads 0.08 seconds after impact), and my experience working with golfers who keep their heads down too long, I think your training aid will actually make golfers worse.

That's not hostility. It's just an opinion.

I'm glad your training aid worked for you, and if I know anything, I know that golfers will buy just about anything, whether it helps them or not. Stick around and talk golf. You're clearly passionate about the game.

You were right about the "bull in a china shop" thing though.

[HeadDown]

Phil can be abrupt.  But what he is suggesting, and others, is that the "head down" advice is usually a bandaid approach.  The head is moving due to other issues in the swing.  Correcting those other issues, will eliminate erroneous head movement.

We can all agree that head position is perhaps the number one key element in a golf swing.  In the 5SK it is listed as #1 as well.

The talk here is "other issues" with regard to what is happening.  What difference does it make how you fix it...as long as it gets fixed?  Developing the product I've found the training has cured any problem of head because my head/eyes always stay down at impact.  My power transfer is better than ever.  I don't get out and golf much at all, too much work I've been engaged in.  Laugh at my handicap...matters little.  What matters if whether this device can help the avg. golfer with keeping their weight behind the ball by training the mind to keep the eyes down at impact.  HeadDown sounds a whole lot better than EyesDown for my company.

[iacas]

We can all agree that head position is perhaps the number one key element in a golf swing.  In the 5SK it is listed as #1 as well.

It is. But as the Director of Instructor Development, and the guy who wrote the manual for 5 Simple Keys®, I can tell you that we cease to care about the head the moment impact occurs, and as I wrote above, a "steady head" is a result of doing other things properly. We never simply tell golfers "keep your head steady."

What difference does it make how you fix it...as long as it gets fixed?

I am of the opinion, and I typed it just above so I am really not saying it again to badger you, that your training aid in its current form will make more golfers worse than it helps because it requires them to keep their eyes looking at the spot near the ball for far too long after impact. I don't agree that your training aid will "fix" golfers.

Developing the product I've found the training has cured any problem of head because my head/eyes always stay down at impact.

I cannot think of a time when I wanted my golfer to keep his head down a minimum of 0.2 seconds (plus time to actually recognize the image) after impact in a full swing.

My power transfer is better than ever.  I don't get out and golf much at all, too much work I've been engaged in. Laugh at my handicap...matters little.

You're right - it doesn't matter much. What you say matters, though, and people are discussing that. Your knowledge, and the knowledge of others, matters most.

What matters if whether this device can help the avg. golfer with keeping their weight behind the ball by training the mind to keep the eyes down at impact.  HeadDown sounds a whole lot better than EyesDown for my company.

Kevin (right?)… Please tell me… in looking at the 5 Simple Keys®… did you make it to Key #2?

[Ernest Jones]

We can all agree that head position is perhaps the number one key element in a golf swing.  In the 5SK it is listed as #1 as well.

The talk here is "other issues" with regard to what is happening.  What difference does it make how you fix it...as long as it gets fixed?  Developing the product I've found the training has cured any problem of head because my head/eyes always stay down at impact.  My power transfer is better than ever.  I don't get out and golf much at all, too much work I've been engaged in.  Laugh at my handicap...matters little.  What matters if whether this device can help the avg. golfer with keeping their weight behind the ball by training the mind to keep the eyes down at impact.  HeadDown sounds a whole lot better than EyesDown for my company.

To the bolded, I'm around a 20 cap, but nobody ever makes fun of me...at least not because of my handicap. Don't play the victim card, it's not necessary and it's not conducive to discussion.

I would suggest you stick around, you may learn a few things that will allow you to improve your product idea.

Did you read the link I (eventually) put up? Here it is again, it isn't about the head but it really does a good job of explaining why you can't necessarily isolate a singe element in your swing and evaluate the whole based on that one snapshot. You need to understand the how and why the snapshot appears as it does.

[HeadDown]

It is. But as the Director of Instructor Development, and the guy who wrote the manual for 5 Simple Keys®, I can tell you that we cease to care about the head the moment impact occurs, and as I wrote above, a "steady head" is a result of doing other things properly. We never simply tell golfers "keep your head steady."

I am of the opinion, and I typed it just above so I am really not saying it again to badger you, that your training aid in its current form will make more golfers worse than it helps because it requires them to keep their eyes looking at the spot near the ball for far too long after impact. I don't agree that your training aid will "fix" golfers.

I cannot think of a time when I wanted my golfer to keep his head down a minimum of 0.2 seconds (plus time to actually recognize the image) after impact in a full swing.

You're right - it doesn't matter much. What you say matters, though, and people are discussing that. Your knowledge, and the knowledge of others, matters most.

Kevin (right?)… Please tell me… in looking at the 5 Simple Keys®… did you make it to Key #2?

Keeping the weight behind the ball like all statements in golf can be misconstrued.  What I meant was not coming up out of the shot and losing the power of weight (head included).  That staying down maintained the weight transfer through impact.  I'm not in a position to debate with those who have spent years developing your science.  I respect what you do/have done.  I also understand that the most oft heard comment in golf is to "keep your head down".  Again...like many terms/phrases in golf this can be debated endlessly as to meaning.

When you are not using the device during a round of golf (yep, illegal)...there is no image to see...but you are cognizant of the desire to keep the eyes down.  This simple concept and application is enough to help most of the golfing world outside of the Pro to low handicap.

[HeadDown]

To the bolded, I'm around a 20 cap, but nobody ever makes fun of me...at least not because of my handicap. Don't play the victim card, it's not necessary and it's not conducive to discussion.

I would suggest you stick around, you may learn a few things that will allow you to improve your product idea.

Did you read the link I (eventually) put up? Here it is again, it isn't about the head but it really does a good job of explaining why you can necessarily isolate a singe element in your swing and evaluate the whole based on that one snapshot. You need to understand the how and why the snapshot appears as it does.

I'll take a look.  first video as about A6 position...not relevant.  I've got to run now though...cheers.

[iacas]

Keeping the weight behind the ball like all statements in golf can be misconstrued.  What I meant was not coming up out of the shot and losing the power of weight (head included).  That staying down maintained the weight transfer through impact.  I'm not in a position to debate with those who have spent years developing your science.  I respect what you do/have done.  I also understand that the most oft heard comment in golf is to "keep your head down".  Again...like many terms/phrases in golf this can be debated endlessly as to meaning.

It's not really the topic here, but… I disagree and hate that words like "keep your weight behind the ball" perpetuate and still exist. Those words, and others (like "keep your head down") do more to screw up the golf swings of average golfers than they do to help IMO.

When you are not using the device during a round of golf (yep, illegal)...there is no image to see...but you are cognizant of the desire to keep the eyes down.  This simple concept and application is enough to help most of the golfing world outside of the Pro to low handicap.

I will continue to disagree. I have a guy - Jason - who came to me as a guy who would shoot 95 or so. He's now capable of shooting 85 or so after a lesson, and the entire thrust of his second lesson was to help him keep his head down… LESS. He was swinging too slowly and hitting the ball too low.

I do wish you'd address the points I and others have made in this thread.

I'll take a look.  first video as about A6 position...not relevant.  I've got to run now though...cheers.

You missed @Ernest Jones 's point: you should not try to fix the result instead of the cause.

[mvmac]

The talk here is "other issues" with regard to what is happening.  What difference does it make how you fix it...as long as it gets fixed?

Not addressing the root cause of the issue won't fix things.

Quick example, many golfers struggle with lining up the shaft and the lead arm well before impact, "flipping". The fix isn't to just hold the wrist angles or think "left wrist flat at impact", it's addressing what is causing the golfer to dump the wrist angles so early.

[Ernest Jones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

To the bolded, I'm around a 20 cap, but nobody ever makes fun of me...at least not because of my handicap. Don't play the victim card, it's not necessary and it's not conducive to discussion.

I would suggest you stick around, you may learn a few things that will allow you to improve your product idea.

Did you read the link I (eventually) put up? Here it is again, it isn't about the head but it really does a good job of explaining why you can necessarily isolate a singe element in your swing and evaluate the whole based on that one snapshot. You need to understand the how and why the snapshot appears as it does.

I'll take a look.  first video as about A6 position...not relevant.  I've got to run now though...cheers.

It's not about the position, it's about the understanding that it is a motion, not a series of perfectly aped positions. What you do before A6 and after A6 is what gives you a good looking A6, however, making A6 look good won't necessarily make what happens before A6 and after A6 better. Same thing applies to "keeping your head down", a good swing will see the head stay down just long enough, and turn through the shot at the right time but forcing your head to stay down won't necessarily make for a good swing.

[HeadDown]

@HeadDown, I'm with @Phil McGleno on this one.

Golfers lifting their head is a result of something else going wrong, in my experience.

Rickie is already moving his head here (it's rotated several degrees from being relatively still at impact and continues). Let's call this A9 (right arm horizontal). The torso has turned about 70° by now and the neck will need to move soon because most people can't turn their neck too much more. So it seems like a good position to judge when someone's head must begin moving in a "normal swing."

This point in the swing is roughly 1/10th of a second after impact. (I checked the swings of other good players, from Tiger Woods to myself, hitting shots with clubhead speeds of 70-90 MPH, and it's all about 1/12th of a second, or 0.083, give or take 0.02 seconds).

Let's take a look at the product in question:

The image is still on the screen until 14/25 of a second later. This is probably required  because a golfer has to both see and recognize the image. To see the image, they have to look at the ball, hit it, then look at the screen, and will likely need a fair amount of time to stare at the screen so that they can recognize the image before it disappears… which seems to me to be well after the point at which most golfers will NEED to turn their heads.

FWIW, I'm simply trying to provide some instructor feedback here. I don't foresee ever using this with golfers (outside of perhaps training younger kids who putt to stay looking down a bit - a putting stroke is obviously not as dynamic or fast as a full swing). I fix the root cause and this, rather than fixing a root cause, it appears to me that it would actually cause problems.

What do I mean by that? While I'm with @Phil McGleno in saying I've never taught players to KEEP their head down, I have taught many players to let their heads turn SOONER so that they can maintain speed and continue to a good follow-through. People who are overly conscious about "keeping their head down" limit their speed through the impact zone and a few have had sore necks from trying to keep their head down while their torso wants to rotate through.

I'm also going to move some posts to a new thread because, while I appreciate how you've sneakily started a discussion about your product, it is off topic for the "Forum Rules" thread you started.

This post was meant to address your post Iacas

So your breakdown of the video spurred me to do the same with original recording taken at 60FPS.  I have video from the POV of a GoPro on a head harness.  This is what I found

Frame1...ball is struck

Frame2...sound of impact

Frame 9...image appears

Frame 15...Image leaves POV (by that my head has turned so that the image is no longer in the camera frame)

What I take from that is it takes 6-7 frames to recognize the flashed image.  Now when I was taking the head shots I was trying to hold my head down (a bit longer perhaps?) in order for the GoPro to have a good look at the logo for viewing.

So we have .033 seconds for the ball impact sound to make it to the camera...shorter for the device.

Image appears at .15 seconds after impact

.25 at most seconds to recognize image

Now taking this approach on the course having used the device I will still be thinking the process...but with no real image to see it might be that I'm pulling up a bit sooner than the .25 seconds.

Look at the photo in my avatar of the phenom from China.  Look at his eyes and club position.  There are many ways to hit a golf ball and not one correct way.  Game has been played since the Middle Ages and throughout all that time the universal creed has been "keep your head down".  There may be some who advocate otherwise.

[ditchparrot19]

Look at the photo in my avatar of the phenom from China.  Look at his eyes and club position.  There are many ways to hit a golf ball and not one correct way.  Game has been played since the Middle Ages and throughout all that time the universal creed has been "keep your head down".  There may be some who advocate otherwise.

If ever decide to hang myself and don't want to use a rope, I'll try to make a swing like the guy in the avatar. I'm pretty sure the effect would be the same as a noose in 5-strand hemp followed by a short- to medium-length drop. Of course, I'm not some ultra-limber 20-year-old, either – I'm a 50-year-old fat a$$.

Just looking at that tiny photo makes my neck hurt like hell. If it works for that kid (and others), then good on them.

[iacas]

So we have .033 seconds for the ball impact sound to make it to the camera...shorter for the device.

Image appears at .15 seconds after impact

Those numbers don't match up with the video I used. The frame numbers are right there in the screenshots. The ball is not in the frame and the first image appears 0.2 seconds later - which is about 0.12 seconds after many good players begin moving their heads.

Game has been played since the Middle Ages and throughout all that time the universal creed has been "keep your head down".  There may be some who advocate otherwise.

"Drive for show, putt for dough" has been said for a long time, too, but it's not really correct either.

Put another way, "keep your head down" is bad advice. I maintain that keeping your head down as long as your device will want people to do so is not something I'd ever really want to teach someone (outside of, again, putting).

[HeadDown]

Those numbers don't match up with the video I used. The frame numbers are right there in the screenshots. The ball is not in the frame and the first image appears 0.2 seconds later - which is about 0.12 seconds after many good players begin moving their heads.

"Drive for show, putt for dough" has been said for a long time, too, but it's not really correct either.

Put another way, "keep your head down" is bad advice. I maintain that keeping your head down as long as your device will want people to do so is not something I'd ever really want to teach someone (outside of, again, putting).

I used a video that has 2.5 times the frame rate of what you were able to examine.  I cannot upload those videos direct as the file is simply too large.  I have to run them through editing software to the 25FPS rate.  The 60 FPS is much more precise in examining what is happening frame by frame. I examined a number of shots and what I reported just now is what it is.

Again...look at the avatar.  There is not one right way to hit a golf ball.

[iacas]

I used a video that has 2.5 times the frame rate of what you were able to examine.  I cannot upload those videos direct as the file is simply too large.  I have to run them through editing software to the 25FPS rate.  The 60 FPS is much more precise in examining what is happening frame by frame. I examined a number of shots and what I reported just now is what it is.

So you're saying the image first appears 0.15 seconds after impact, and I'm saying that good players are moving their heads 0.08 seconds after impact. Do you see what the issue continues to be? That's still almost twice as long, and that's without factoring in any time to recognize the image.

Again...look at the avatar.  There is not one right way to hit a golf ball.

The avatar doesn't demonstrate anything, Kevin. I virtually guarantee his head has rotated by that point in time… and that point in time is likely about 0.1 seconds after impact, or about 2/3 of the time before your device will first display an image.