Pete's Programme (Single Digit to Tour Player)

[Nosevi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Ok, will give it a go. I was just pulling your leg re blaming you if it wrecks my swing, sure it won't do. My swing does work for me though but that's not to say it can't be improved. I'll let you know how it goes

haha it's all good, last thing I'd want to do is screw you up!

You won't I have a bit of a luxury in that I have quite a bit of time on my hands. I'll give it a go but if it doesn't work for me I'll revert back. In theory it'll improve my contact and straighten out my shots......... but in theory with a bit of a cupped wrist at the top I probably shouldn't be hitting it pretty much straight on target carrying an 8 iron about 153 yards and rising by the month. I'll give it a go though and report back.

I must confess, part of the reason for posting a vid was in answer to one of the biggest criticisms of The Dan Plan which I have followed for a bit. Namely that I, you or anyone else has absolutely no clue how he hits the ball or what his long game (or any area really) skill level is. Given that he has a Flightscope it's amazing that absolutely no complete data has been posted. I say "complete" because when some data was posted the carry numbers were missed off. I know quite a bit about the Dan Plan, the only thing I have no idea of is how good he is at golf - I find that ironic. I don't want my programme to be like that. I don't have time to post day by day updates but I will open the doors a little when I can so people can see how it's actually going, actually see the data and the shot dispersion etc.

[garybbq]

Great thread, thanks Pete.

I'm just curious you mentioned you "hate grip changes" care to give a bit of detail on what exactly you changed with your grip? what were the results short and long term?

Thanks,

[Nosevi]

Great thread, thanks Pete. I'm just curious you mentioned you "hate grip changes" care to give a bit of detail on what exactly you changed with your grip? what were the results short and long term? Thanks,

Hi there. I hate grip changes more because they don't really work for me. They sometimes seem like the obvious answer to a problem - leaking it right, just strengthen your grip a tad, but try as my coach has (and he really has), that has never worked for me. The problem is I have what he describes as very 'educated' hands - it really doesn't matter what grip I have I'll naturally attempt to square the club face. In fact in one session when he was trying to get me to stop closing the club face through impact we gradually weakened my grip (or rather kept my grip neutral but rotated the club face open at address) to the point where the club face was litterally 45 degrees open to the target line - it made no difference, I still drew/hooked the ball. It was only when we slowed it all down using high speed video so I could see where the club face was that I could consistently square the club face up. What is important to me is where the club face is in my mind's eye. If I feel it's open I'll naturally close it, if I feel it's closed I'll open it. When what I feel the position of the club face is is accurate, I'll hit it straight pretty much every time. I guess it's a talent but it's also something to be aware of so I don't go wasteing hours with grip changes as they siimply won't work with me. That video I shot earlier was 10 shots to 155 yards with a maximum left right error of 4 yards and an average left right error of about 2 yards. I don't have a scientific calculator on me but I'm guessing the angular error of the club face is pretty small. That's not an accident - I pretty much know how my mind works, if I know where the club face is pointing I'll square it up. I do drills to help me feel where the club face is throughout the swing, mostly slow motion and impact drills, if people are curious I'll show you the sort of things I do, they really are pretty basic but have helped me massively. But anyway, that's why I hate grip changes - because up until my current instructor who quickly worked out I'm 'different' (being kind) every other instructor I've seen has tried to change my grip to correct a fault. It has never yet worked.

[Nosevi]

Just a really quick point. I watched the video I did back and near the end when I'm talking about the distance I get with a given club and it seems as if I'm contradicting myself - I'm pleased my distance is going up but then say it's pointless trying to hit an 8 iron further and further.

What I'm getting at is it's the 'trying' which is pointless - ie being able to hit an 8 iron 170 or 175 yards is pretty irrelevant if you're having the 'thwack' it to get the ball out there. You simply lose too much control. It's far better to swing within yourself and hit the ball 150. The thing is I don't feel like I'm hitting the ball any harder than I was a few months ago but the carry distance is steadily climbing. This is due to striking the ball a bit more purely and the phys I'm doing starting to take effect and not to do with swinging harder at it.

[b101]

What is important to me is where the club face is in my mind's eye. If I feel it's open I'll naturally close it, if I feel it's closed I'll open it.

This really resonates with me - I think it may be a by-product of 'teaching myself' to play golf. I had one lesson at the age of ten and then nothing until last year. The very first thing was to change my grip (which was admittedly very weak), and whilst that did help, it took far more time for my mind to adjust to where the clubhead was. Since then, any subtler changes have had very little effect.

Also, regarding your point about distance, I completely agree - it's a by-product of you getting stronger and having better technique. What's the point in smashing a PW 180 yards when you could hit a controlled 6 iron far more accurately?

As ever, really enjoying this thread and it's everything the Dan Plan should have been in terms of progress and an informed plan - you had a well-devised approach but aren't afraid to tweak minor elements if something needs improvement. It's also noticeable how much more you're tracking what you do compared to him.

How's the knee feeling at the moment? I take it you're spending the same amount of time on your Plan but just wedges and putting?

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by b101

As ever, really enjoying this thread and it's everything the Dan Plan should have been in terms of progress and an informed plan - you had a well-devised approach but aren't afraid to tweak minor elements if something needs improvement. It's also noticeable how much more you're tracking what you do compared to him.

How's the knee feeling at the moment? I take it you're spending the same amount of time on your Plan but just wedges and putting?

Knee wise it's feeling ok, no real snags. I've only been hitting irons really, I'll give it until next week before I go back to the driver. Just that minor tweak of turning my left foot out has taken all the strain off the left knee and left ankle. It'll take a while to get used to it but I'll persevere and I'm sure it'll feel natural in a few weeks. Time wise, I'm still cracking on with it. I've spent a bit more time chipping and putting over the last week or so but also spent time doing some full swing drills so it's been in no way time lost, may actually have been an advantage to stop hitting balls for a bit and work on some basics.

The programme itself is pretty meticulous, lots of data and quite a bit of analysis. I think I mentioned it before but in order to have short term goals to work towards the programme is divided into 'Trimesters' based around the academic year here in the UK. My wife is a teacher and with 2 kids at school basing the terms or phases around their terms just makes sense. I also think it's about the right amount of time you want to go before you have a look at all aspects of your game and reassess where your focus should be. By having set periods it also gives more focus to the programme as a whole.

At the beginning of each phase I set goals for that phase in all sorts of areas. At the mid point (which coincides with the kids' half term week off) I check my performance on the course against those targets to ensure I'm progressing towards them and if I'm not in any area I tweak the programme and put more emphasis there for the second half of the phase. I then have an assessment week at the end of the phase and effectively score against all the targets I set at the start. How I do drives the targets for the next phase as well as the training priorities.

It's what we would call in the military a constant improvement loop - Target set, train, assess against those targets, tweak programme, train, reassess against targets, Set new targets - repeat. I was an instructor in the military (both Air Traffic throughout my career and also did a tour as an Officer Training Instructor at our 'academy') And that is more or less how we would train. Without effective target setting and assessment I think it would be more difficult to drive a programme forward.

To give an idea about what I assess it's broken down into a long game launch monitor assessment to gage how the swing is progressing, an on course assessment and a general fitness assessment. The fitness assessment isn't too draconian at the moment, just a general losing weight, heartbeat test on the bike and doing more reps type of deal. The other areas are a bit more involved.

Long game wise I picked a short, mid and long iron (PW, 8, 6) to give an idea how I was striking them as well as looking at my Driver. I may add in my new hybrid (Ping G30) or a 5 wood next year, we'll see, but this was just how I started. I record and track:

Ball Speed

Launch angle

Spin rate

L/R error

Distance control (not on Driver)

Overall dispersion

Ball carry

Really I'm looking at the outcomes (ie carry, L/R error and distance control) but track the launch data so I can see how they change over time and also directly compare to the Tour Pro I sometimes practice with as well as a couple of other good players (better than scratch) who have used my kit on the understanding I have their data to use in my programme.

On course I track some 'traditional stats' (partly as the golf apps I use record them) but also Strokes Gained using a nifty spreadsheet Randy wrote for me. We get the data to input into the spreadsheet from recording the assessment rounds using Game Golf. Normal stats I track, record and assess are:

Fairways %

GIR % (I get nGIR from Randy's spreadsheet)

Scrambling %

Sand saves

Putts per GIR

Total putts - I record the putting as my golf apps record them but on the assessment rounds I record the length of every putt (game golf isn't close to accurate enough) to put into Randy's spreadsheet and this gives me a far better idea about my putting than the raw number of putts taken.

Scoring level compared to Course Rating (we call it SSS but it basically amounts to the same thing) - The reason I track this and it drives my progress assessment is that the EGU did an assessment of scoring ability compared to handicap under out system and found that a Category 1 player will almost always average 2 shots over their handicap - a scratch player will average 74 on a course with a course rating of 72 and have the ability to shoot to scratch in somewhere close to 1 in 5 rounds. This allows me to assess where I really am and forget about what my official handicap is as our system takes an eternity to catch up if you are improving.

So this is what I assess each term and this is what I use to 'drive' the programme. It is perhaps a tad excessive and quite a bit of thought went into it but so far it's working. It's an organised approach but you're right, I have no qualms about changing it up if (or more likely when) I grid to a halt or merely because a good idea comes along. I'll be incorporating Lowest Score Wins into the programme and am pretty excited to see how the analysis in there can help me, particularly with course and game management.

[garybbq]

Hi there.

I hate grip changes more because they don't really work for me. They sometimes seem like the obvious answer to a problem - leaking it right, just strengthen your grip a tad, but try as my coach has (and he really has), that has never worked for me. The problem is I have what he describes as very 'educated' hands - it really doesn't matter what grip I have I'll naturally attempt to square the club face. In fact in one session when he was trying to get me to stop closing the club face through impact we gradually weakened my grip (or rather kept my grip neutral but rotated the club face open at address) to the point where the club face was litterally 45 degrees open to the target line - it made no difference, I still drew/hooked the ball. It was only when we slowed it all down using high speed video so I could see where the club face was that I could consistently square the club face up.

What is important to me is where the club face is in my mind's eye. If I feel it's open I'll naturally close it, if I feel it's closed I'll open it. When what I feel the position of the club face is is accurate, I'll hit it straight pretty much every time. I guess it's a talent but it's also something to be aware of so I don't go wasteing hours with grip changes as they siimply won't work with me.

That video I shot earlier was 10 shots to 155 yards with a maximum left right error of 4 yards and an average left right error of about 2 yards. I don't have a scientific calculator on me but I'm guessing the angular error of the club face is pretty small. That's not an accident - I pretty much know how my mind works, if I know where the club face is pointing I'll square it up. I do drills to help me feel where the club face is throughout the swing, mostly slow motion and impact drills, if people are curious I'll show you the sort of things I do, they really are pretty basic but have helped me massively.

But anyway, that's why I hate grip changes - because up until my current instructor who quickly worked out I'm 'different' (being kind) every other instructor I've seen has tried to change my grip to correct a fault. It has never yet worked.

Very interesting..... However I'm a bit confused. I get that you are able to square up the clubface no matter what grip you use or in your case draw the ball, but the grip change must change something in your swing? it has to be slightly different?

What was the "fault" your instructor was trying to fix with the grip change?

Thanks,

[Nosevi]

Very interesting..... However I'm a bit confused. I get that you are able to square up the club face no matter what grip you use or in your case draw the ball, but the grip change must change something in your swing? it has to be slightly different?

What was the "fault" your instructor was trying to fix with the grip change?

Thanks,

I probably didn't describe it too well

Essentially I was pulling the ball a bit left with a slightly closed club face so we weakened my grip. The thing was, in my mind's eye the club face was now more open so I compensated, closed the club face and the ball still went left. We weakened the grip a little more, I compensated more as it felt like the club face was even more open, the ball went where it was going at first, no change. The snag wasn't that my grip was too strong for my swing, it was that I had an unrealistic view of where the club face was as I came down into impact. When we slowed it all down (using high speed cameras mainly but also slow motion drills) and I could see that my club face was in fact neutral and not open I squared the club face and this sorted out the snag, no grip change was required.

For me I just need to know where the club face is pointing as I come half way down and I'll naturally square it up, it's not concious. I spent hours (well more like days all in all) doing drills to feel the club face squaring into impact so now it just happens. I actually think I'd struggle to hit a big slice (unless it was very deliberate), my hands just won't allow me to do it, I've spent too many hours doing drills to square up the face.

I could show guys the sort of drills I did but I may be drifting into 'teaching guys how to play golf' and that's not my intention - there are guys far more qualified on here to do that. I know what worked for me but that's bearing in mind all sort of things including my proprioception and how my brain works. Most instructors will give you the very good advice of "Take your hands out of the shot." Thing is I have what my instructor terms 'good hands', better than he's seen he says and he has taught some very very good golfers, and it allows me to use that to hit the ball pretty straight.

Hope that sort of answers your question

[Nosevi]

I've been hitting balls in the swing studio with a flatter left wrist as @layup suggested I try. For the first few I pulled them quite a long way left as the club face was more closed at the top than I'm used to. My natural response was to open the face at the top by cupping my left wrist a tad to stop this but I persevered and after a few minutes was hitting them straighter. The strike was improved which you could hear instantly and resulted in the ball going a bit further, average was about 160 yards carry with the 8 iron with no more effort involved, longest shots were mid 160s. This gives some idea of my launch angle and spin number etc for anyone who's interested.

So the question is do I try to incorporate this change or go back to a bit of an open club face at the top together with the manipulations I was putting in to square the club face at impact?

I think I'll give it a go for a few weeks. The strike is certainly better and although I'm not overly worried about my distance with the irons, the fact the ball is going further is the result of a more efficient swing/strike - ball speed is up and I'm not trying any harder. Added to that anything that removes the need for me having to manipulate the club into impact is probably going to be a good thing. Lastly if the club face is less open coming down but square at impact that probably means the closure rate of the club face is slower (or release is just later, possibly both?). That means I'm slightly less likely to hit a wild slice or hook if my timing is out.

All in all, cheers Layup. I knew the slight cup was there but your comment made me at least experiment with flattening it out. It may or may not work but will let you know either way

[Faksakes]

I've been hitting balls in the swing studio with a flatter left wrist as @layup suggested I try. For the first few I pulled them quite a long way left as the club face was more closed at the top than I'm used to. My natural response was to open the face at the top by cupping my left wrist a tad to stop this but I persevered and after a few minutes was hitting them straighter. The strike was improved which you could hear instantly and resulted in the ball going a bit further, average was about 160 yards carry with the 8 iron with no more effort involved, longest shots were mid 160s. This gives some idea of my launch angle and spin number etc for anyone who's interested.

So the question is do I try to incorporate this change or go back to a bit of an open club face at the top together with the manipulations I was putting in to square the club face at impact?

I think I'll give it a go for a few weeks. The strike is certainly better and although I'm not overly worried about my distance with the irons, the fact the ball is going further is the result of a more efficient swing/strike - ball speed is up and I'm not trying any harder. Added to that anything that removes the need for me having to manipulate the club into impact is probably going to be a good thing. Lastly if the club face is less open coming down but square at impact that probably means the closure rate of the club face is slower (or release is just later, possibly both?). That means I'm slightly less likely to hit a wild slice or hook if my timing is out.

All in all, cheers Layup. I knew the slight cup was there but your comment made me at least experiment with flattening it out. It may or may not work but will let you know either way

Ah, very interesting results there Pete especially in such short order. I'd love to see the swing if you get a chance to video it sometime. Very curious to see what the next few weeks brings for you and if you end up going back or sticking with the change. I found my transition from back swing to down swing was really helped by this. Humbled that you gave it an honest go so thanks very much for trying it out and I'm praying it doesn't screw you up! Cheers Pete

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by layup

Ah, very interesting results there Pete especially in such short order. I'd love to see the swing if you get a chance to video it sometime. Very curious to see what the next few weeks brings for you and if you end up going back or sticking with the change. I found my transition from back swing to down swing was really helped by this. Humbled that you gave it an honest go so thanks very much for trying it out and I'm praying it doesn't screw you up! Cheers Pete

Sure it won't screw me up in any way, mate. As I said, I'll give it a good go for a good couple of weeks and see if it sticks. I'll be seeing my coach next week at some point so I'll chat to him about it but my thoughts are I'll need a slight grip change so I can more easily hit it straighter. This might sound like I'm contradicting what I told @garybbq but I'm not really, will see if I can explain.

As I said to him I tend to manipulate the club face however I need to in order to hit the ball straight. At the moment I play with a fairly strong left hand grip so if I flatten my left wrist it closes the club face. Can't get this all in one photo but if I have my left wrist flat my club face is a little more closed off than I want:

Keep that left wrist flat and down into impact we're going left all day even with significant forward shaft lean:

Now as I told @garybbq I tend to manipulate the club to get it square no matter what daft things I do in my swing or set up and in this case the 'daft thing' was having a strong left hand grip, the manipulation was cupping my left wrist. I'm not the only one to do this from a strong left hand grip. This bloke does exactly the same and has had a little success with it:

But @layup won't let me do that any more . I could just close the club face off at the top, then have lots of forward shaft lean and open up my hips more at impact like Dustin Johnson but really don't have that kind of flexibility.

I'm guessing that's what @garybbq was saying - a grip change has to change a swing somehow if the ball still goes in the same place. In most cases people are changing their grip to make the ball go more or less straight while keeping the same swing. I'm trying to change the swing and having to change the grip a tad in order to keep the ball going more or less straight so it's slightly different but I now see what he was saying.

As I said, I'll have a couple of weeks making sure I get a slightly flatter left wrist at the top, possibly with a slightly less strong left hand grip and see if I can get that to work. I'll post a vid at some point to show how it's going. If I can't get it to work I'll go back to my little cup at the top similar to Fred.

[Faksakes]

Sure it won't screw me up in any way, mate. As I said, I'll give it a good go for a good couple of weeks and see if it sticks. I'll be seeing my coach next week at some point so I'll chat to him about it but my thoughts are I'll need a slight grip change so I can more easily hit it straighter. This might sound like I'm contradicting what I told @garybbq but I'm not really, will see if I can explain.

As I said to him I tend to manipulate the club face however I need to in order to hit the ball straight. At the moment I play with a fairly strong left hand grip so if I flatten my left wrist it closes the club face. Can't get this all in one photo but if I have my left wrist flat my club face is a little more closed off than I want:

Keep that left wrist flat and down into impact we're going left all day even with significant forward shaft lean:

Now as I told @garybbq I tend to manipulate the club to get it square no matter what daft things I do in my swing or set up and in this case the 'daft thing' was having a strong left hand grip, the manipulation was cupping my left wrist. I'm not the only one to do this from a strong left hand grip. This bloke does exactly the same and has had a little success with it:

But @layup won't let me do that any more  . I could just close the club face off at the top, then have lots of forward shaft lean and open up my hips more at impact like Dustin Johnson but really don't have that kind of flexibility.

I'm guessing that's what @garybbq was saying - a grip change has to change a swing somehow if the ball still goes in the same place. In most cases people are changing their grip to make the ball go more or less straight while keeping the same swing. I'm trying to change the swing and having to change the grip a tad in order to keep the ball going more or less straight so it's slightly different but I now see what he was saying.

As I said, I'll have a couple of weeks making sure I get a slightly flatter left wrist at the top, possibly with a slightly less strong left hand grip and see if I can get that to work. I'll post a vid at some point to show how it's going. If I can't get it to work I'll go back to my little cup at the top similar to Fred.

I had to weaken my grip as well, was also very strong.

[Cupcakus]

As an engineer in real life, I too am a huge numbers guy when it comes to working on my swing. I was curious if you have or plan to use the HMT for the GC2, I was able to try one the other day and it helped me make a number of positive fixes to my AoA and impact zone. As a rank beginner that stuff is magic to me, "Get your AoA to -5 deg" is so much more meaningful than "Hit down on the ball". Maybe you don't really need it, but I was curious if it was a career level tool.

[Nosevi]

I had to weaken my grip as well, was also very strong.

Yep, think it's a given that I'll have to tweak it a bit.

As an engineer in real life, I too am a huge numbers guy when it comes to working on my swing. I was curious if you have or plan to use the HMT for the GC2, I was able to try one the other day and it helped me make a number of positive fixes to my AoA and impact zone. As a rank beginner that stuff is magic to me, "Get your AoA to -5 deg" is so much more meaningful than "Hit down on the ball". Maybe you don't really need it, but I was curious if it was a career level tool.

The simple answer is yes, I will be using it at some stage. I've had an invite from a guy called Oliver Clark, the CEO of Foresight Sports Europe who are the UK importer of the Foresight GC2, to go and use their full set up free of charge any time I like. They came over and did a photo shoot to go together with a short piece on how I was using the kit after seeing some of the numbers I'm achieving with it in terms of accuracy and consistency as well as length off the tee.

I'm not big into the whole media thing in general, but in this case it's probably not a bad contact to make. This will be even more the case if I have some success training with their kit - get from 'hacker' to playing on tour at some level and they may want to do a second piece on using the kit to train. I may negotiate a little harder than free use of their kit that time though .

[garybbq]

Quote:

I'm guessing that's what @garybbq was saying - a grip change has to change a swing somehow if the ball still goes in the same place. In most cases people are changing their grip to make the ball go more or less straight while keeping the same swing. I'm trying to change the swing and having to change the grip a tad in order to keep the ball going more or less straight so it's slightly different but I now see what he was saying.

Although I'm not quite sure about the above statement, I have changed my grip a few times now and have given the grip allot of thought. I don't think its possible to change your grip and keep the same swing, people may think they do it but they simply don't.

[Nosevi]

Thanks Pete, yes that what I was implying by a grip change having to change something about your swing.

Quote:

I'm guessing that's what @garybbq was saying - a grip change has to change a swing somehow if the ball still goes in the same place. In most cases people are changing their grip to make the ball go more or less straight while keeping the same swing. I'm trying to change the swing and having to change the grip a tad in order to keep the ball going more or less straight so it's slightly different but I now see what he was saying.

Although I'm not quite sure about the above statement, I have changed my grip a few times now and have given the grip allot of thought. I don't think its possible to change your grip and keep the same swing, people may think they do it but they simply don't.

You've obviously looked into it more than I have so I'm guessing you're right. Probably one of those feel vs real scenarios where you think you're doing one thing (keeping your swing the same) where actually you're not.

[iacas]

Pete, there's no reason you can't have a flat left wrist and have the face pointing somewhere else. It depends not on the flatness of your wrist but where you've rotated the forearm(s). I could uncock my left wrist, put the clubhead down behind the ball, and point it 45° left or right of the target line.

That's not to say you need to do this, necessarily… just that a "flat left wrist" doesn't have as much to do with the clubface orientation as you seem to want to say.

[MattM]

This is awesome!  Finally something legitimate that we can actually root for!  I'm definitely rooting for you!