Pete's Programme (Single Digit to Tour Player)

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="Lihu" url="/t/80287/petes-programme-single-digit-to-tour-player/252#post_1180168"] Yeah, these two are young and strong.[/QUOTE] lol, The word "Yeah"  implies you are agreeing with me that they are not strong. The phrase "these two are young and strong" is stating you are not agreeing with me.

Ambiguity always wins! :-D

[Nosevi]

[QUOTE name="No Mulligans" url="/t/80287/petes-programme-single-digit-to-tour-player/252#post_1180165"]   Is strength that important for golf?  These two are really thin and hit the ball a long ways.  I'm sure they're fit and flexible, but they don't look terrible strong... Troy Merritt 6'0", 160lbs, average driving distance 284.  Justin Thomas, 5'10", 145 lbs. average driving distance 302. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/129355/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/129357/] [/URL] [/QUOTE] My experience is no nothing is a substitute for good technique. I play with strapping kids all the time and outdrive them, me at the tips and them on whites. I am not even overly long, my best drives are middle of the pack LPGA long so not a beast by any means. If I hit something 265ish I am usually 30-40 past the athletic younger guys I see out there. I am 47 and sort of fit at 6'1 210ish but nothing like I was at 25.

If the "athletic younger guys" are driving it 225-235 yards total they are not even in the ball park for what you need to be aiming for to play on tour at any level. Sorry but that's the truth. I'll hit 3 drives for you tomorrow and carry all of them over 270 yards rolling out over 290 with no issue. Happy to demo if you like and that's with questionable technique (but it is getting better - see the swing thread!) The point is a certain distance off the tee is a prerequisite to play at a reasonably high level simply due to the length of course. There was much chat on The Dan Plan thread about not having the required length and that truely is what it is - an absolute requirement. The point I was making with @Lihu is that when he said someone of my years can't compete with guys almost 20 years younger due to an inability to compete on their terms through lack of strength, that's not strictly speaking true. I may fall short in all sorts of other areas (and perhaps will) but as I drive the ball further than many who currently play on tour I just don't see that as one of those areas.

[Lihu]

Troy Merritt 6'0", 160lbs, average driving distance 284.  Justin Thomas, 5'10", 145 lbs. average driving distance 302 The point I was making with @Lihu is that when he said someone of my years can't compete with guys almost 20 years younger due to an inability to compete on their terms through lack of strength, that's not strictly speaking true. I may fall short in all sorts of other areas (and perhaps will) but as I drive the ball further than many who currently play on tour I just don't see that as one of those areas.

Not exactly what I said, in fact the opposite. That's how you are interpreting it. What I have stated and have been stating is that younger people do have an advantage in general. Plus, they heal faster when injured which helps them get through tournament seasons without long absences and that type of thing. . .

[Nosevi]

Sure, when you are young you can do many things, but I don't see what that has to do with getting older and weaker . . .I'm not stating anything about being able to meet your goals or not, just that youth and the fitness associated with youth is not on your side. Yeah, but that is not fitness level. He might weigh 60% of your body weight and be 90% of your strength. That's the strength of youth.

[quote name="Lihu" url="/t/80287/petes-programme-single-digit-to-tour-player/270#post_1180239"][quote name="Nosevi" url="/t/80287/petes-programme-single-digit-to-tour-player/270#post Not exactly what I said, in fact the opposite. That's how you are interpreting it. What I have stated and have been stating is that younger people do have an advantage in general. Plus, they heal faster when injured which helps them get through tournament seasons without long absences and that type of thing. . .[/quote] Sorry @Lihu I thought the whole conversation was about whether an older guy can be in the physical condition to compete with younger guys on the course on their terms and whether he could be physically powerful enough later on in life. Maybe that's just the direction the conversation went in (I think others thought that hence posting examples of size vs driving distance). It's a debate we've all had on the Dan Plan thread - apparent lack of physical power - and I just thought it had moved across to here and age was being sited as a reason not to be as strong as the younger guys. If you were talking about recovery periods etc then absolutely you're right. I thought we were only talking about strength and power :-)

[Shorty]

but as I drive the ball further than many who currently play on tour I just don't see that as one of those areas.

Oh really?

And who might they be?

There are measured drives and there are measured drives.

There are driving range heroes and guys who can hit it 30 yards further than their  stats may indicate any time they like. Especially on hard fairways.

[Nosevi]

[QUOTE name="Nosevi" url="/t/80287/petes-programme-single-digit-to-tour-player/270#post_1180197"]  but as I drive the ball further than many who currently play on tour I just don't see that as one of those areas.[/QUOTE] Oh really? And who might they be? There are measured drives and there are measured drives. There are driving range heroes and guys who can hit it 30 yards further than their  stats may indicate any time they like. Especially on hard fairways.

Hi @ @Shorty Regarding who they may be, you've got to remember I'm aiming at a developmental tour in the UK, not the PGA Tour or playing the in masters by 2018 :-) I kind of think that would be a fairly sensible and achievable goal for someone coming to golf later on. Not easy by any stretch but not barking mad either. I've walked the fairways in tournaments with a guy who plays that tour (no ropes as so few spectators) and watched him out drive most of his competitors on a regular basis. I practice with the guy and on the course sometimes he drives further, sometimes I do. Isn't it reasonably logical to assume I have the length off the tee required at this level? I'm driving it on course as far as a guy who is longer than most of the guys he's played this year. I'm not saying I'm going to stand on a tee and rip it as far as the top 10 on the PGA Tour hit it. But then that's not my goal, Europro Tour in the UK is. Big difference :-)

[Shorty]

I'm not saying I'm going to stand on a tee and rip it as far as the top 10 on the PGA Tour hit it. But then that's not my goal, Europro Tour in the UK is. Big difference

All the young guys are bombers.

Moreso even on the secondary tours because the courses are easier and set up differently.

The really big hitters are on the Web.com tour.

[Nosevi]

[QUOTE name="Nosevi" url="/t/80287/petes-programme-single-digit-to-tour-player/270#post_1180345"] I'm not saying I'm going to stand on a tee and rip it as far as the top 10 on the PGA Tour hit it. But then that's not my goal, Europro Tour in the UK is. Big difference :-) [/QUOTE] All the young guys are bombers. More so even on the secondary tours because the courses are easier and set up differently. The really big hitters are on the Web.com tour.

That's fair but like I say I regularly (pretty much every week) practice with a guy at the level I'm aiming at. The whole point of that is to know how he performs at every aspect of the game, chipping, bunker play, approach play, putting as well as driving the golf ball. He's recorded a 4th and an 8th on that tour so far this summer so fair to say he can compete at this level. I'm comparing myself to him both on the course and on the practice ground so that I know how far behind I am....... and it's pretty far. The area where I've caught up the most though is on distance off the tee, he'll usually still just pip me but not always any more as I've gained about 40 yards carry off the tee in the last year and a bit (measured with Flightscope and GC2). I totally get what you are saying, people come on forums and report 'internet yards' and say how they can mix it with guys on this or that tour. I'm not comparing myself with someone playing on Sky Sports, I'm comparing myself with someone walking next to me down the fairway and that someone is doing ok at the level I'm aiming at. But anyway, I've got a long way to go. Few months in to a 4 or 5 year programme. All I can do is my best and see how far that gets me. As I've said before I think I have a chance but it's a very, very small one and that's with doing pretty much everything I can to maximise my potential.

[Lihu]

What's a "Sky Sports" ?

[Nosevi]

What's a "Sky Sports" ?

Sorry, 'Sky Sports' is our biggest sports channel in th UK and has all the golf on. The point is I'm not watching someone on TV playing at the level I'm aspiring to and saying "I could drive it like that!", I'm stood on the first tee at my club with them or on the range with them or the putting green or in the swing studio directly comparing launch angles and spin rates, ball speed and carry distance. That was one part of the programme I was determined to put in place. I'm not guessing how these guys strike the ball, I could tell you exactly how they strike the ball as, having watched Brian playing in tournaments I know where he stands in distance etc compared to his peers and I know where I stand compared to Brian. Anyway, I take the point about fitness of the younger guys re recovery times etc and we'll just have to wait and see how I go. As an aside, Brian tees off in the Northern Ireland Open in exactly 3 minutes.......

[Nosevi]

Early in the round but fair to say the guy can play the game:

[Nosevi]

Sorry for the huge picture above, was uploaded from my phone in the mobile version of the site and didn't know how big it was until just now. Brian dropped back a couple of shots to 2 under but it's not a bad first round on the Challenge Tour. It was only really posted to show what one of the guys I practice with is capable of. It's pretty early in his pro career but when he gets on a roll he does tend to score a lot or birdies. This is obviously a championship course but on a regular track he just eats the course alive when his game is 'on'. I really do know what sort of performance I'm aiming at in every aspect of the game and I know what a big ask that is. I'm not sitting at home watching the PGA Tour on TV having hit a few halfway decent shots at the country club, going to the bar and saying "I could do that." That was the whole point of finding players at the level I'm aiming at to compare my performance to. Sorry if this is coming over as 'defensive' @Lihu and @Shorty but I really do know how good the guys are at the level I'm aiming at, I went to a great deal of trouble to make sure of it. I'll be with Brian for the run up and over the 3 days of a tournament later this month to further my understanding of what I'm aiming at. I think this is an area where most of these sort of challenges fall short - they compare themselves on their home course with Pros on Tour set ups. I was determined not to make that mistske. As well as practising with the likes of Brian and Jess I've collected ball flight data from a guy at the lower level of the Amateur Circuit (plays off scratch), the upper end (plays off plus 4) a couple of Pros competing at the regional level (mini tour) and Brian at the level I'm aiming at. Everything from wedge spin numbers to Driver carry and lauch numbers. I can't really stress this enough - I'm not guessing how far I have to go, I know......... and it's a long way. Best I get hitting balls rather than arguing about strength and driver carry numbers :-)

[rkim291968]

It's possible to shoot really big scores on that particular course:

1st has OOB down the left side of the fairway and you go into the green over a tree lined, water filled ditch.

2nd has OOB down the left side (you go over it if you cut the corner), you tee off over a couple of ponds and a water filled ditch is in play if you don't go over the OOB

3rd is a par 3 with OOB tight down the left side to a green sloping away from you protected by a deep bunker in front and with a fall away at the back of the green into trees. Deep rough just off the right side of the green, in there and you're firing back at the green with OOB right behind it.

Sounds like my home course.  1st hole has OB on both sides, 3rd hole has OB on both sides, 4th hole has OB on right, 5th hole has OB on both, ....  Our club champion score was +23 on two round total.   I think that difficulty separates accurate ball strikers (pros, near pros) from scratch wannabees.

[Nosevi]

Guests have departed so I'm back at it and had an interesting time in the 'swing studio' today. There's a guy I've chatted to a couple of times on the putting green and we get on pretty well. He's clearly a good player, at least around the greens where I've see him practice. I snuck out yesterday for a couple of hours of short game when no one was watching early in the morning, he was there practicing and we got talking. Turns out he was playing Challenge Tour (one down from the European Tour) with the odd European Tour event a couple of years ago before an illness sidelined him for the best part of a couple of years. Now, well on the road to recovery, he's playing a few 'mini tour' events this year (has won a couple already, possibly unsurprisingly) in preparation for trying to relaunch his career next year.

This is the guy and as you can imagine he was tagged as a future star early on, captaining our national schools squad and winning the equivalent of our state under 18 championship at age 15 then retaining it at 16 and again at 17 years old. He then went onto the national under 21 squad before turning pro. An ongoing illness severely restricted his climb up the ranks eventually forcing him to stop playing all together. I hugely hope he is over it and can pick up where he left off. Ok I'm working hard but I'm really doing this as a personal challenge and, if I'm honest, for fun. This guy has real talent and but for some cruel luck would likely not be mixing it with guys on a mini tour in central England. Seriously nice bloke and the best of luck to him.

http://www.robharrisgolf.co.uk/career.php#tab2

Anyway, all that aside, what was interesting for me was that he plays a slightly different game to Brian. Where Brian is all about power Rob appeared to play a more controlled game. Rob's launch conditions were actually fairly close to mine. His trajectories per iron were identical to within a degree and his yardages were about 5 yards per club up from me but no more due to a tad more ball speed - I clearly need to keep at the gym work. His driver launch conditions were nigh on identical and we both carry the ball about 280 yards on a good strike. What made it an interesting comparison is that Rob and I have identical sets - both have Ping Tour Gorge wedges, both have Ping i25 irons, both have G30 5 and 3 wood and both a 9.5 degree G30 driver. Similar flex shafts but different makes but other than that we use the same clubs (largely due to Ping having a national fitting center just down the road from us). I 'cheat' and have a hybrid in the bag where Rob has a 4 iron (mine lives at home most of the time) but other than that we're using the same clubs.

What all this told me was that 'chasing' Brian's launch conditions is probably an exercise in the pointless. Every time I see him he's hitting it further with his irons, a good 6 iron is over 200 yards carry now. Funny thing is with driver we're all about the same at around 280 yards carry on a good hit the difference being the other two hit it 'good' more often. Watching Rob go through the bag hitting exact yardages that were not astronomical but were the yardages he wanted to hit, bearing in mind the talent he clearly has, reinforced what I think we all know - the number on the bottom of the club doesn't really matter a jot. The only club in the bag where distance really matters is driver and with that club were're all pretty close to each other now.

At the end we agreed that we'd meet up again and practice together from time to time both on and off the course. From my perspective another very talented player to learn from and an opportunity to see the game played in slightly different way to the way Brian 'attacks' the course. Very useful morning.

[Nosevi]

I know I've said this before but probably the last post for a bit, hope no one minds. I just feel I have to knuckle down a bit and actually move forward. I'd rather come back in a few weeks and have something concrete to report rather than tiny steps every other day. That said today was an important day as it was a hugely important match. It wasn't for my club or a qualifying competition or for a trophy, it was far more important than that. It wad against my Dad. My Dad has been reatively supportive of my efforts in general but has been reasonably vocal in not holding with the way I'm going about it. He firmly believes that launch monitors, swing studios, high speed video and hours on the practice ground should give way to 'just going out on the course and playing golf'. I disagree and believe you build the skills you need off the course and apply them on the course. It's been the subject of some reasonably heated discussions over the past year. Anyway, I've not played my Dad in over a year as my parents now live in Spain, since before the programme started and my scoring average started to drop. In fact before I started taking this all a bit more seriously and before I got my initial handicap. His handicap tends to bounce between about a 16 and an 18 or so and last time out he beat me (we always play matchplay). In fact he beat me the last 3 times out. While I've reported my progress I'm not overly convinced it's all been taken at face value, particularly in light of the fact that I've gone against advice given. Anyway, on a day with a light breeze I stood on the 390 yard par 4 1st and ripped it down the middle. My second was a 42 yard pitch and got the up and down for birdie. The course was only 6200 yards from the men's tees which is considerably shorter than I'm used to and I just found the middle of the club all day. My Dad comented that he'd never seen his home course (from when he lived in the UK) totally over-powered and the match became a tad pointless. I didn't putt well at all but at the end of the match I won it. In fact I was 12 up. He had to conceed that there was an outside chance that I knew what I was doing in my use of available technology and training methods. Right, busy week next week - 4 training sessions with Jess, Brian's back for a bit so sure I'll be out and about with him and I've got loads to work on with my swing. I feel the programme is still going in the right direction, at least for the time being........

[Lihu]

Beating a 16-18 handicap by 12 holes doesn't seem like much of an accomplishment for a 5 HC? I beat an 18 by that many holes as a 13.6, which quite frankly felt like shooting fish in a barrel. Reporting your 348 yard drive seems a little bit boastful, but probably felt really good with your dad watching. :-)

[iacas]

Beating a 16-18 handicap by 12 holes doesn't seem like much of an accomplishment for a 5 HC? I beat an 18 by that many holes as a 13.6, which quite frankly felt like shooting fish in a barrel.

I'm gonna assume they played… with their handicaps… @Lihu . C'mon.

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="Lihu" url="/t/80287/petes-programme-single-digit-to-tour-player/270#post_1182216"] Beating a 16-18 handicap by 12 holes doesn't seem like much of an accomplishment for a 5 HC? I beat an 18 by that many holes as a 13.6, which quite frankly felt like shooting fish in a barrel.[/QUOTE] I'm gonna assume they played… with their handicaps… @Lihu . C'mon.

I assumed that, but maybe his dad is a more stable 18 than my friend? My friend was bogey and lots of double the day we played, and I was par/bogey and won something like 11 holes. 6 actual and 5 conceded because he fell apart.