Vegetarian/Vegan Beef Crumbles as a filler

[Gator Hazard]

Okay great people of TST I have a question and if there are any suggestions or advice would really appreciate it.

We have been trying to eat a lot cleaner, which means less meat, better quality meat (organic, grass fed, antibiotic free) when we can and organic produce when and where we can.  My sister introduced my daughter to vegan tacos made with some vegan crumbles that she liked and the stuff looked like ground beef which was pretty cool.  My question is, has anyone ever experimented with cutting your ground beef with vegetarian/vegan beef crumbles to make any dishes like lasagna, spaghetti sauce, hamburgers or taco beef filling?

We buy the organic grass fed beef in the 1lb packages but for our family we are really more in the 1.5lbs needed for cooking.  For giggles I picked up some beef crumbles in the freezer section of the specialty section at our store that has vegetarian/vegan/gluten free stuff (think it was around 8 oz or so).  The picture looks like ground beef, and I am thinking about tossing it in with the 1lb of ground beef to make our tacos and taco salads with tomorrow night.

In any event I will report back on the findings, but if anyone has any experience and or tips for this it would be great to hear as we are trying to eat a little less meat when and where we can for our health.

 

[Lihu]

Good post. This is something we are considering as well. I tend to eat more unsalted tree nuts in between meals and less meat during my meals.

Costco sells breakfast patties with scrambled eggs and mostly vegetable protein. Haven't really tried them yet, but probably will tomorrow morning.

[Gator Hazard]

For some time I have tried to eat vegetarian during lunch because I am a big meat eater and at dinner can eat a good sized portion of meat, I also don't feel sluggish after lunch which is a huge benefit.  I like nuts as a snack as well and tend to gravitate towards raw unsalted almonds and walnuts.  Recently I got hooked on bacon salt flavored sunflower seeds but have cut them out because just too much sodium.  I am trying to get more vegetables in as snacks though, my mid morning snack was organic raw broccoli (huge difference in the coloration between organic and non organic broccoli, much greener so far more nutrients in it) with two tablespoons of preservative free ranch dressing and my afternoon snack is organic celery and carrots with two tablespoons of the same ranch.

Breakfast is usually a wight loss breakfast shake and lunch typically consists of a Caesar salad with avocado or something close.  

Dinner tonight is chicken kabobs with bell pepper and onion and mushrooms on them and some hummus and Naan bread.  I like this meal because the meat is not the sole focus and with the veggies and hummus you really feel full plus the hummus is so good for you.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[Pretzel]

One thing I will state, as someone who has grown up raising cattle, is that antibiotic free ranching tends to be more harmful than responsible antibiotic use.

When you give antibiotics to cattle, you are instructed by the prescribing veterinarian of the "withdrawl time" of the antibiotic. This is the period of time at which the levels of antibiotics in the system of the cow are low enough that they will have no measurable effects on the human populace (similar to how your drinking and tap water contains arsenic - it's just at such a low concentration that you are unaffected by it). Meat sent to slaughterhouses to be processed is tested for antibiotics and any meat that is found to be above the allowable concentrations is discarded and destroyed.

When cattle are raised to be "antibiotic free" the rancher has two choices when a cow/steer gets sick:

1) They can do nothing, except separate the cow/steer to ensure that it doesn't infect any more members of the herd than it already has, and let the cow/steer suffer while hoping that it gets better. If it dies you have now wasted a large amount of resources that were spent on the cow/steer to raise it since infected meat is unusable, not to mention the fact that you have enforced suffering and death upon the cow/steer that could have been saved with conventional medicine.

2) They can shoot the cow/steer immediately. Depending on the illness, this is the much more humane practice than hoping that the cow/steer will survive whatever ails it or allowing it to die of illness because it is being raised as "antibiotic free". This carries the same cons as the previous course of action but gets it out of the way much quicker, though it does guarantee the cow/steer will die as opposed to there being a chance of it surviving.

In a ranch that responsibly uses antibiotics you will find that much more of the cattle survive to ultimately reach your table, with far fewer resources wasted unnecessarily. You also are not injecting every single cow/steer with antibiotics, but only those that have become ill with something that requires antibiotics to treat effectively.

 

I don't want to come off as trying to bash you for your decision to eat antibiotic free beef, I just would like for you to know exactly what that entails. Responsibly used antibiotics are tremendous tools to increase the standard of living for the cattle being raised and increase the overall yield of beef, helping to keep prices lower and fulfill demand on time. Just because beef has been raised as antibiotic free does not mean that it is higher quality. Again, I fully respect your right to choose whatever beef you prefer to consume, but I would encourage you to research and educate yourself about responsible ranching practices and how the proper use of antibiotics fits into the overall picture. This is an issue that hits close to home for me, and it's reassuring when people put in the effort to know more about the procedures involved in putting food on their table.

[Lihu]

Good to know @Pretzel

[Gator Hazard]

16 hours ago, Pretzel said:

One thing I will state, as someone who has grown up raising cattle, is that antibiotic free ranching tends to be more harmful than responsible antibiotic use.

When you give antibiotics to cattle, you are instructed by the prescribing veterinarian of the "withdrawl time" of the antibiotic. This is the period of time at which the levels of antibiotics in the system of the cow are low enough that they will have no measurable effects on the human populace (similar to how your drinking and tap water contains arsenic - it's just at such a low concentration that you are unaffected by it). Meat sent to slaughterhouses to be processed is tested for antibiotics and any meat that is found to be above the allowable concentrations is discarded and destroyed.

When cattle are raised to be "antibiotic free" the rancher has two choices when a cow/steer gets sick:

1) They can do nothing, except separate the cow/steer to ensure that it doesn't infect any more members of the herd than it already has, and let the cow/steer suffer while hoping that it gets better. If it dies you have now wasted a large amount of resources that were spent on the cow/steer to raise it since infected meat is unusable, not to mention the fact that you have enforced suffering and death upon the cow/steer that could have been saved with conventional medicine.

2) They can shoot the cow/steer immediately. Depending on the illness, this is the much more humane practice than hoping that the cow/steer will survive whatever ails it or allowing it to die of illness because it is being raised as "antibiotic free". This carries the same cons as the previous course of action but gets it out of the way much quicker, though it does guarantee the cow/steer will die as opposed to there being a chance of it surviving.

In a ranch that responsibly uses antibiotics you will find that much more of the cattle survive to ultimately reach your table, with far fewer resources wasted unnecessarily. You also are not injecting every single cow/steer with antibiotics, but only those that have become ill with something that requires antibiotics to treat effectively.

 

I don't want to come off as trying to bash you for your decision to eat antibiotic free beef, I just would like for you to know exactly what that entails. Responsibly used antibiotics are tremendous tools to increase the standard of living for the cattle being raised and increase the overall yield of beef, helping to keep prices lower and fulfill demand on time. Just because beef has been raised as antibiotic free does not mean that it is higher quality. Again, I fully respect your right to choose whatever beef you prefer to consume, but I would encourage you to research and educate yourself about responsible ranching practices and how the proper use of antibiotics fits into the overall picture. This is an issue that hits close to home for me, and it's reassuring when people put in the effort to know more about the procedures involved in putting food on their table.

Hi Patch,

No worries, and it is always great to get other people's perspective.  As I had stated, we eat it when and where we can, not always, but probably 50% of the time.  My reasons for buying it is because of some of the research I had done on how they fatten cows, and that grain (corn) is not a natural diet for cows and they have trouble digesting it, and as a result they pump them full of antibiotics and rBGH (two thirds of beef cattle are given rBGH).  Unlike the practice you have stated above I had read that when a single cow in the heard comes down with an infection they give the antibiotics to the entire herd in regular doses as a "preventative measure".  They also give them antibiotics to help with weight gain and when stuffing them with corn, oats, and barley based diets to help with their digestion since it is not their natural feed when finishing them.  The research I read said that even grass fed cattle that are then finished on corn diets lose their nutritional value and makeup in the fat in the meat where the Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio gets poor again.

I guess it is a pick your poison type of purchasing decision, neither process is completely humane, and the store packaging doesn't tell me which cuts of meat come from farms where they use antibiotics responsibly instead of just as a blanket protection measure.

Thank you for this information though, it has made me start looking further into how I can get clean meat that is humane and there are a few farms that sell beef, so in the future maybe it will be possible for me to purchase in bulk and store in a freezer in the garage.  I want to get an extra freezer so that I can go get some wild game as well.  Have an old coworker who has land in SC where he hunts everything and the deer (venison) is amazing.  

Appreciate your take.

[Mr. Desmond]

I can't help you on the vegan crumbles, but mixing up 2/3 beef, 1/3 vegan ought to help, especially with decent seasonings.

When I began eating less meat, about 5 years, ago, I did too much soy, too many nuts, too much cheese, too much pasta and bread... I did not know how to do the vegan, and didn't really go vegan except for a week or two at a time.

I have evolved gradually (4 years after a quad bypass -vegan kills - lol) not eating any fat or as little as possible, to avoiding much soy, avoiding nuts ... to presently enjoying range free organic chicken (for the most part), grass fed beef or buffalo in limited amounts, still don't do too many nuts, do a lot more broccoli, green beans, squash, less bread, a lot more fresh fruit, limited dairy. Fresh fish when I can find it.

I like a big breakfast of steel cut oatmeal - 30  minutes cooking - adding some psyllium husks (regularity and less cholesterol) and blueberries, cherries, strawberries, pumpkin seeds, etc. to it. I occasionally have a seeded/spelt bread and gawd forbid, i piece of lean bacon (I cut off the fat). I have almonds and brasil nuts occasionally. Good coffee.

Mid-morning is a fuji apple.

Lunch is a salad and veggies, sometimes some chicken 1-2 oz. I do it light to stay alert.

Mid Afternoon - another apple or orange

Dinner -- 2-3 oz of chicken or steak and veggies, sometimes I will have egg whites, veggies, chorizo, and salsa in a tortilla. Glass of red wine - doctor's orders to raise HDL (no kidding). Dessert may be fruit, it may be low fat yogurt.

And sometimes, I will mix it up with guilty pleasures. Gotta' live.

Cholesterol was right at 100 last week, triglycerides were at 100, HDL needs to come up - more exercise needed, and fish oil (doctor's orders).

So there you have another story..

Edited November 3, 2015 by Mr. Desmond

[Gator Hazard]

15 hours ago, Mr. Desmond said:

I can't help you on the vegan crumbles, but mixing up 2/3 beef, 1/3 vegan ought to help, especially with decent seasonings.

When I began eating less meat, about 5 years, ago, I did too much soy, too many nuts, too much cheese, too much pasta and bread... I did not know how to do the vegan, and didn't really go vegan except for a week or two at a time.

I have evolved gradually (4 years after a quad bypass -vegan kills - lol) not eating any fat or as little as possible, to avoiding much soy, avoiding nuts ... to presently enjoying range free organic chicken (for the most part), grass fed beef or buffalo in limited amounts, still don't do too many nuts, do a lot more broccoli, green beans, squash, less bread, a lot more fresh fruit, limited dairy. Fresh fish when I can find it.

I like a big breakfast of steel cut oatmeal - 30  minutes cooking - adding some psyllium husks (regularity and less cholesterol) and blueberries, cherries, strawberries, pumpkin seeds, etc. to it. I occasionally have a seeded/spelt bread and gawd forbid, i piece of lean bacon (I cut off the fat). I have almonds and brasil nuts occasionally. Good coffee.

Mid-morning is a fuji apple.

Lunch is a salad and veggies, sometimes some chicken 1-2 oz. I do it light to stay alert.

Mid Afternoon - another apple or orange

Dinner -- 2-3 oz of chicken or steak and veggies, sometimes I will have egg whites, veggies, chorizo, and salsa in a tortilla. Glass of red wine - doctor's orders to raise HDL (no kidding). Dessert may be fruit, it may be low fat yogurt.

And sometimes, I will mix it up with guilty pleasures. Gotta' live.

Cholesterol was right at 100 last week, triglycerides were at 100, HDL needs to come up - more exercise needed, and fish oil (doctor's orders).

So there you have another story..

I had bought a frozen one called beyond meat but it was already Italian seasoned and I did not know that (did not say it was) so I went and got Lightlife Smart Ground Meatless Original Crumbles.  It is soy and wheat based and will probably try some others but I have to say, it went really well and the family approves.  I used the whole package (12oz) with 1LB of 85/15 beef, added the seasoning powder, garlic salt and about 6 ounces of salsa and cooked it all together.  It was surprisingly good, you could barely tell a difference and it was more than we needed so thinking I can get away with half the package next time.

The cheese, pasta and bread I can see having issues.  I don't know enough about soy stuff yet, but I doubt we will ever consume enough of it.  What is wrong with nuts?  I constantly hear that men should eat nuts, especially almonds and walnuts as they are full of healthy fats and omega-3s.  

What are your thoughts on the new ideas surrounding fat, and that its not exactly the fat that is so bad for us but the carbohydrates?  I could never give up bacon but only eat it about once a week or two weeks and we buy the stuff that is naturally cured with no preservatives.  I know you are far more educated on this stuff than I am but I would say when it comes to eggs that it is fine to eat the yolks.  They went back on that and admitted that they were basically telling you to throw the healthiest part of the egg away.  I used to eat tons and tons and tons of eggs when I was in better shape and my blood cholesterol levels were always really good (understand that genetics also plays a part).  My problem is blood pressure, I am just a little bit higher than I should be (pre-hypertension).

I was eating steel cut oatmeal for about a year and a half for breakfast and absolutely loved everything about it.  I started having back problems and my sister told me that I may be one of the people who has an issue with it, that for some people it can cause an inflammatory reaction that the body fights.  She said stop eating it and see what happens.  So, I have stopped it and my back feels better, not sure though that is the issue.  I may start eating them again.

Sounds like you are doing good, keep it up.  I have not had my annual physical yet but when I do, will be interested to see how my blood work comes back.  I want to cut a few pounds before they do it and have some time to shed some weight.  

 

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[Mr. Desmond]

8 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

I had bought a frozen one called beyond meat but it was already Italian seasoned and I did not know that (did not say it was) so I went and got Lightlife Smart Ground Meatless Original Crumbles.  It is soy and wheat based and will probably try some others but I have to say, it went really well and the family approves.  I used the whole package (12oz) with 1LB of 85/15 beef, added the seasoning powder, garlic salt and about 6 ounces of salsa and cooked it all together.  It was surprisingly good, you could barely tell a difference and it was more than we needed so thinking I can get away with half the package next time.

If you enjoy it, great! Keep on experimenting.

The cheese, pasta and bread I can see having issues.  I don't know enough about soy stuff yet, but I doubt we will ever consume enough of it.  What is wrong with nuts?  I constantly hear that men should eat nuts, especially almonds and walnuts as they are full of healthy fats and omega-3s.

Soy - something about estrogen; can't fully remember. I decreased my consumption of it. It is used a lot as a sub for breakfast sausage - I stopped buying it.

What are your thoughts on the new ideas surrounding fat, and that its not exactly the fat that is so bad for us but the carbohydrates?  

Agree - I think it's a balance, cut carbs, cut fat but still eat meat. According to my reading, our body makes sufficient cholesterol without adding more ... so I eat only a few ounces at a time.

I could never give up bacon but only eat it about once a week or two weeks and we buy the stuff that is naturally cured with no preservatives.  

Yes, I am choosy about lean bacon, and always go nitrate free, and sometimes organic when I can find it. I only eat it when my son is around, and only one piece.

I know you are far more educated on this stuff than I am but I would say when it comes to eggs that it is fine to eat the yolks.  They went back on that and admitted that they were basically telling you to throw the healthiest part of the egg away.  I used to eat tons and tons and tons of eggs when I was in better shape and my blood cholesterol levels were always really good (understand that genetics also plays a part).  My problem is blood pressure, I am just a little bit higher than I should be (pre-hypertension).

I am not that educated; I read books after surgery, especially the Doc that said you can reverse blockage by cutting all fat (Bill Clinton follows this guy, but he cheats .... lol, who would have thought?)

Eggs? I use one yolk for every 2-3 eggs. Don't eat that many, and when I do, it is with veggies, chorizo or bacon, and salsa. A tortilla is also involved.

I was eating steel cut oatmeal for about a year and a half for breakfast and absolutely loved everything about it.  I started having back problems and my sister told me that I may be one of the people who has an issue with it, that for some people it can cause an inflammatory reaction that the body fights.  She said stop eating it and see what happens.  So, I have stopped it and my back feels better, not sure though that is the issue.  I may start eating them again.

If you sister is referring to celiac disease, I think that is wheat induced.

Sounds like you are doing good, keep it up.  I have not had my annual physical yet but when I do, will be interested to see how my blood work comes back.  I want to cut a few pounds before they do it and have some time to shed some weight.  

Reducing weight helps - at my lowest, I was 168, settled in at 174, and then began lifting weights, and I am a bit over that - I like 175. But the blood work is good.

 

See above. Thanks for your thoughts. Oh, as to nuts, one can overdo fat, I think. I keep it to almonds (unsalted but roasted), pistachios (because I like them), and an occasional brazil nut (manly). I also add pumpkin seeds - get them raw and roast them for 20 minutes at 225 F - too much and they lose their nutrients - it's another manly seed.

[Gator Hazard]

35 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

See above. Thanks for your thoughts. Oh, as to nuts, one can overdo fat, I think. I keep it to almonds (unsalted but roasted), pistachios (because I like them), and an occasional brazil nut (manly). I also add pumpkin seeds - get them raw and roast them for 20 minutes at 225 F - too much and they lose their nutrients - it's another manly seed.

My son and I like to chomp on pistachios on occassion when we are sitting on the couch.  I love chorizo and eggs, my father is from Albuquerque NM (he's Spanish and Sicilian) lives in Las Vegas now for over 50 years, and every year he sends me several bags of Hatch New Mexico hot red chilis, several bags of frozen hatch green chili, some homony for making pork pozole (posole) around the holidays and gets some Mexican style chorizo that is made fresh in a store there in Las Vegas and freezes that and sends along as well.  It is so much better than what is in the stores.  If you can find a place that makes their own I highly recommend it.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[Mr. Desmond]

18 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

My son and I like to chomp on pistachios on occassion when we are sitting on the couch.  I love chorizo and eggs, my father is from Albuquerque NM (he's Spanish and Sicilian) lives in Las Vegas now for over 50 years, and every year he sends me several bags of Hatch New Mexico hot red chilis, several bags of frozen hatch green chili, some homony for making pork pozole (posole) around the holidays and gets some Mexican style chorizo that is made fresh in a store there in Las Vegas and freezes that and sends along as well.  It is so much better than what is in the stores.  If you can find a place that makes their own I highly recommend it.

The closest I get to home made chorizo so far is the local Whole Foods Market that sometimes makes it fresh.

[Dave2512]

Calorie for calorie, nutrient for nutrient some of the veggie stuff isn't better than meat it exists because there is a vegan market. IMO meat gets bad press for the wrong reasons. The health and nutrition stuff the mainstream is aware tends to be outdated or half truths.

That said when I eat chose a veggie based meat alternative I tend not to eat meat look-alikes. I've used eggplant in Italian dishes and we use squash a lot. When I eat tofu I stick to Asian foods where it's the norm. With all the clean meat out there now unless someone has a health or ethitcal issue standing between them and meat I can't see a reason not to eat it.

One thing for sure it's tough to eat 100% clean with processed packaged foods and most meat alternatives are processed packaged foods. Not much to gain if my veggie burger is extruded soy hammered with a bunch of chemicals to make it sort of taste like beef. Even dumping a bunch of salty sauce on tofu is worse than just eating some lean protein and veggies still in their natural state.

[Gator Hazard]

22 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Calorie for calorie, nutrient for nutrient some of the veggie stuff isn't better than meat it exists because there is a vegan market. IMO meat gets bad press for the wrong reasons. The health and nutrition stuff the mainstream is aware tends to be outdated or half truths.

That said when I eat chose a veggie based meat alternative I tend not to eat meat look-alikes. I've used eggplant in Italian dishes and we use squash a lot. When I eat tofu I stick to Asian foods where it's the norm. With all the clean meat out there now unless someone has a health or ethitcal issue standing between them and meat I can't see a reason not to eat it.

One thing for sure it's tough to eat 100% clean with processed packaged foods and most meat alternatives are processed packaged foods. Not much to gain if my veggie burger is extruded soy hammered with a bunch of chemicals to make it sort of taste like beef. Even dumping a bunch of salty sauce on tofu is worse than just eating some lean protein and veggies still in their natural state.

We do that too, homemade eggplant parmesan is always a tasty meal and is one of my wife's favorites.  I think there is some benefit in that you get half the fat and half the calories in general for serving portions of the stuff versus real meat, so I see a benefit in that compared to just meat.    Overall the idea is to eat less meat and more vegetables and we figured this would be one way to aid in that goal.  More often than not we are eating whole foods such as vegetables and the like and making them more of the portion than the meat.  

Tonight I am making parmesean chicken chunks with marinara sauce over spaghettie squash.  This is a tasty one and very minimal.  Dice up some fresh garlic, put it in hot coconut oil, then add diced up chicken breast chunks seasoned with Italian seasonings.  Let it start to brown, then shake grated parmesean cheese over the chicken chunks, roll the chicken around in the pan to coat them and slightly brown.  Spaghetti squash, parmesean chicken chunks, and a nice marinara over the top with some crushed red peppers.  

[Dave2512]

I make a mean spaghetti squash. When I am trying to cut calories I eat huge piles of it. I get the trading low cal foods for high cal foods to maximize portion size. Was a time I let myself get into pretty ugly territory, avoiding mirrors type stuff I was so out of it. Just a tough time and I was drinking and eating too much. Anyway when I started getting healthy again I made enormous meals that were very low cal.

But even then I ate meat because some are what I consider low cal and I can only eat so much veggies. I felt overeating veggies was still overeating even if the calorie damage wasn't there so I kept meat in my routine. Stuff like pork loin, fish, roasted chicken all low cal. I am an adventurous eater so I eat a lot of tripe and tendon.

[Gator Hazard]

3 hours ago, Dave2512 said:

I make a mean spaghetti squash. When I am trying to cut calories I eat huge piles of it. I get the trading low cal foods for high cal foods to maximize portion size. Was a time I let myself get into pretty ugly territory, avoiding mirrors type stuff I was so out of it. Just a tough time and I was drinking and eating too much. Anyway when I started getting healthy again I made enormous meals that were very low cal.

But even then I ate meat because some are what I consider low cal and I can only eat so much veggies. I felt overeating veggies was still overeating even if the calorie damage wasn't there so I kept meat in my routine. Stuff like pork loin, fish, roasted chicken all low cal. I am an adventurous eater so I eat a lot of tripe and tendon.

Nice.  What is your preferred method for cooking the spaghetti squash?  

That is pretty much the area I am in.  I have put on too much weight, can't believe how many pounds I have sacked on over the past 4 years and I need to get it off of me.  I am currently six foot and 235 lbs, I need to be closer to 205-210.  I was at 190 when I moved to Florida and that was a little light for me.

I cannot do tripe.  I have tried Menudo a few times and the tripe is just not for me.  Tendon I have never specifically eaten but I do like good oxtail and oxtail stew where there is a lot of (not sure if it is tendon) that kind of stuff, doesn't bother me.  I need to get more fish into our diets but I don't like the farm raised stuff and right now there is a lot of that in the markets.  

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[Ringworld]

Eat smaller portions.  

If you must snack eat vegetables and fruit.  

Don't eat past 6PM.  

No late night snacks.

Water is a better beverage.

Eat a reasonable breakfast.  No starches.  Proteins a good thing.  But lay off the fatty foods like..... bacon :(

[Gator Hazard]

 

3 hours ago, Ringworld said:

Eat smaller portions.  

If you must snack eat vegetables and fruit.  

Don't eat past 6PM.  

No late night snacks.

Water is a better beverage.

Eat a reasonable breakfast.  No starches.  Proteins a good thing.  But lay off the fatty foods like..... bacon :(

Doing all of that but I do have fruit as a snack after dinner. I've never been a big soda drinker. 

They'll have to pry the bacon from my cold dead hand. Never ever ever giving up bacon. I don't eat it too often but it is a guilty pleasure. 

[Dave2512]

21 hours ago, Gator Hazard said:

Nice.  What is your preferred method for cooking the spaghetti squash?  

Baked in a water bath covered with foil cut side down. I dry it completely after I pull it out then reheat it in a little EVOO and garlic. From there it's whatever direction I want to go with it. I use it for everything from Italian inspired stuff to curries. It's pretty versatile and unmixed it stays firm in the fridge for a few days.

Trick for me is not go nuts with stuff like cheese if I make a pasta type meal. I use goat cheese crumbles or fresh grated parm but very little and I weigh it so I know exactly how much I use. It's amazing what 20g of cheese will do for the taste of things with very little calorie impact. I think just seeing it on there helps. It's that we eat with our eyes thing. If it looks like puke on a plate I don't care if it's kobe prime rib.