Bogey Golfers Only (Index 16-22) / Breaking 90 Topic

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissouriHack

Have any of you guys tried too map out your short game? Club+ball position+Swing length ect ect.= the shot distance that you want. If so how did you do it and how did you keep track of it?

As an alternative to this - I think we bogey guys can try too much of this for our own good sometimes.  In my observation, the fancier and more technical folks at this level try to get, the less effective the outcome.  Unless someone is a REALLY consistent chipper, it might be a good idea to go with: 2 clubs, one ball position, one level of face openness, one level of choking down, etc.  Then once you are really good at that - add something.

The two clubs are so you can make two different shots.  One for closer pins with less green and one for when you have more green.  Everything else being the same offers you 2 things.  1) a chance to actually become really reliable with the shot 2) a chance to actually develop an expectation of what the ball will do.

When you add variables of several clubs, each with different ball positions, then each combination of those with different face angles, etc etc etc - the number of variables and outcomes is tremendous.  And none of them matter if you mishit it because you've been varying the ball position.  The small difference in outcomes due to all these variables is small potatoes on the scorecard compared to 1) making great contact time after time and 2) knowing how far the ball is going to fly, check and roll.

I don't believe bogey golfers have poor performance around the greens because they are consistently hitting high quality shots but simply picked the wrong ball position or choked down the wrong length.  In my observation, we perform poorly because we mishit the ball, skull it across the green, fat it into a bunker, etc.  I'd think reducing variables as opposed to adding them would help with decreasing the score-killing mishits.

I feel I'll catch flack for this - but it seems logical to me.

I may be an exception to this.   I focused on short game from the start to compensate for lack of distance.  So, I don't skull, duff around green. Now, I can get balls consistently out from any kind of bunker.   For chipping & pitching, I  have same swing length but use different club for varying length (e.g, 15 yards for LW, 20 for SW, 25 for GW1, 30 for GW2, 35 PW, 40 9i, ..., ).   If needed (too lazy to bring right club from cart), I will use whatever club I had in my hand but I would have less confidence with the ensuing shot.

[Meltdwhiskey]

I may be an exception to this.   I focused on short game from the start to compensate for lack of distance.  So, I don't skull, duff around green. Now, I can get balls consistently out from any kind of bunker.   For chipping & pitching, I  have same swing length but use different club for varying length (e.g, 15 yards for LW, 20 for SW, 25 for GW1, 30 for GW2, 35 PW, 40 9i, ..., ).   If needed (too lazy to bring right club from cart), I will use whatever club I had in my hand but I would have less confidence with the ensuing shot.

Actually, it doesn't sound like you are deviating very far from what I had written.  For one - you don't skull or duff.  That is remarkable.  If you are that consistent, then my theory doesn't apply because it is about overcoming inconsistencies common to the bogey golfer.  Once you are that good, then fine tuning with other things becomes appropriate.

However, (and second), from what you list, it doesn't sound like you are varying your ball position, club face, choking, etc.  Not even your swing length.  You have one swing and then just use a different club.  You have still done what was the point of my post - reduced variables so you can 1) gain consistency and 2) know what to expect.  You actually have less variables than I described.  You only have one - the club.

And the result is phenomenal!  Not only are you super-consistent, you can nail your distance to within 5 yards.  You are proving the model.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

I may be an exception to this.   I focused on short game from the start to compensate for lack of distance.  So, I don't skull, duff around green. Now, I can get balls consistently out from any kind of bunker.   For chipping & pitching, I  have same swing length but use different club for varying length (e.g, 15 yards for LW, 20 for SW, 25 for GW1, 30 for GW2, 35 PW, 40 9i, ..., ).   If needed (too lazy to bring right club from cart), I will use whatever club I had in my hand but I would have less confidence with the ensuing shot.

Actually, it doesn't sound like you are deviating very far from what I had written.  For one - you don't skull or duff.  That is remarkable.  If you are that consistent, then my theory doesn't apply because it is about overcoming inconsistencies common to the bogey golfer.  Once you are that good, then fine tuning with other things becomes appropriate.

However, (and second), from what you list, it doesn't sound like you are varying your ball position, club face, choking, etc.  Not even your swing length.  You have one swing and then just use a different club.  You have still done what was the point of my post - reduced variables so you can 1) gain consistency and 2) know what to expect.  You actually have less variables than I described.  You only have one - the club.

And the result is phenomenal!  Not only are you super-consistent, you can nail your distance to within 5 yards.  You are proving the model.

Just about the only time I vary my shot/swing is if my ball is sitting on unusual lie or I need high lob shot to go over something (water, sand, tree).   For unusual lie shots, I don't do very well as it is hard to practice for it.   I practiced lob shots a lot and am fairly good at it (and it helps to be short with short arms when faced with delicate shots - refer to my avatar ),.

[Lihu]

Let's start a series of posts with a set of goals that we think we need for each of us to get to single digits or just out of this particular thread. (Then we could start a new one?)

We all have ideas on getting there, we could start sharing them and picking them apart into realistic and attainable goals.

[MissouriHack]

As an alternative to this - I think we bogey guys can try too much of this for our own good sometimes.  In my observation, the fancier and more technical folks at this level try to get, the less effective the outcome.  Unless someone is a REALLY consistent chipper, it might be a good idea to go with: 2 clubs, one ball position, one level of face openness, one level of choking down, etc.  Then once you are really good at that - add something.   The two clubs are so you can make two different shots.  One for closer pins with less green and one for when you have more green.  Everything else being the same offers you 2 things.  1) a chance to actually become really reliable with the shot 2) a chance to actually develop an expectation of what the ball will do.   When you add variables of several clubs, each with different ball positions, then each combination of those with different face angles, etc etc etc - the number of variables and outcomes is tremendous.  And none of them matter if you mishit it because you've been varying the ball position.  The small difference in outcomes due to all these variables is small potatoes on the scorecard compared to 1) making great contact time after time and 2) knowing how far the ball is going to fly, check and roll. I don't believe bogey golfers have poor performance around the greens because they are consistently hitting high quality shots but simply picked the wrong ball position or choked down the wrong length.  In my observation, we perform poorly because we mishit the ball, skull it across the green, fat it into a bunker, etc.  I'd think reducing variables as opposed to adding them would help with decreasing the score-killing mishits. I feel I'll catch flack for this - but it seems logical to me.

No flack here. I get what you saying and trying to figure out how many combinations there could be lead me to some complicated math. I'm a graphic designer by trade and figuring out how too present very complicated information in an efficient way is kinda my thing. I get what your saying. There is a very definite danger of overwhelming a player at my level with this. But it's cold were I live and I don't watch TV all that much.

[MissouriHack]

Let's start a series of posts with a set of goals that we think we need for each of us to get to single digits or just out of this particular thread. (Then we could start a new one?) We all have ideas on getting there, we could start sharing them and picking them apart into realistic and attainable goals.

I would like to be shooting 85's on a regular basis by the end of the year. How about a bogey golfer thread championship? We could post scores, at the end of the year Take the averages and figure it out. The only thing I wouldn't know how to do is adjust the slope rating of different courses to each other.

[Meltdwhiskey]

I would like to be shooting 85's on a regular basis by the end of the year.

How about a bogey golfer thread championship?

We could post scores, at the end of the year Take the averages and figure it out. The only thing I wouldn't know how to do is adjust the slope rating of different courses to each other.

You would probably want to use differentials.  That would come the closest to leveling the field for all the different courses and sets of tees etc.  If you don't keep a handicap you can still calculate it yourself.  The formula is on the internet.  There isn't much too it.

Also, if you don't have a handicap - it is kinda cool to have one (even if it is as high as mine!).  It is a very quantifiable way to see how good you are and if you are getting better.  You can also play in tournaments or even get in matches against folks with different skill levels.  And add it to your profile on this site.  It's pretty fun to have one when you need one.  And of course it will calculate your differential the moment you enter your scores.  Since you like the stats and such, you'd dig it the most.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Let's start a series of posts with a set of goals that we think we need for each of us to get to single digits or just out of this particular thread. (Then we could start a new one?)

We all have ideas on getting there, we could start sharing them and picking them apart into realistic and attainable goals.

My goal for 2013 was to start hitting in the 80's as my regular scoring.  I wanted to practice some certain things, but mostly practice more.  It was the first time I joined a course and had availability to hit as many balls as I wanted, play golf without charge, play 5-6 holes if that is all I had time for, etc.  I made a pretty good go of it but I can't say I accomplished it.  I definitely hit in the 80's more, but not as much as I'd like.

For this year, I might have the same goal from a scoring and handicap standpoint, but more than anything I need to fix my swing.  Somewhere between the instruction I got in a certain lesson and what I perceived in that certain lesson caused some serious trouble that I need to fix.  When I saw it on film I was appalled.  I can't believe my handicap didn't go through the roof.  I got a real golf coach a few weeks ago and I'm thrilled.

Step 1: Practice the new move he taught me until it looks great and hope to impress him with my progress

[MissouriHack]

You would probably want to use differentials.  That would come the closest to leveling the field for all the different courses and sets of tees etc.  If you don't keep a handicap you can still calculate it yourself.  The formula is on the internet.  There isn't much too it. Also, if you don't have a handicap - it is kinda cool to have one (even if it is as high as mine!).  It is a very quantifiable way to see how good you are and if you are getting better.  You can also play in tournaments or even get in matches against folks with different skill levels.  And add it to your profile on this site.  It's pretty fun to have one when you need one.  And of course it will calculate your differential the moment you enter your scores.  Since you like the stats and such, you'd dig it the most.

Yea I know my handicap. http://www.csgnetwork.com/golfhcapcalc.html I used this site before i got my Upro.

[billchao]

As an alternative to this - I think we bogey guys can try too much of this for our own good sometimes.  In my observation, the fancier and more technical folks at this level try to get, the less effective the outcome.  Unless someone is a REALLY consistent chipper, it might be a good idea to go with: 2 clubs, one ball position, one level of face openness, one level of choking down, etc.  Then once you are really good at that - add something.

The two clubs are so you can make two different shots.  One for closer pins with less green and one for when you have more green.  Everything else being the same offers you 2 things.  1) a chance to actually become really reliable with the shot 2) a chance to actually develop an expectation of what the ball will do.

I get what you're trying to do, keep it simple, which I'm totally all for. My question is, how do you hit different distances? The way I understand the method you're promoting, distance control is determined purely by the length of your swing, which introduces the biggest variable out there.

This is why the Dave Pelz made his system, which I think is what @MissouriHack is getting at. You map out your distances for all your wedges by swing length (1/4, 1/2, 3/4 or by clockface, whatever image works best for you) so that you don't have to "feel" the shot. When you're facing a 35 yard shot, you'll know exactly what combination of club & swing length you need to get there.

Ball position (assuming you're not getting crazy with the placement) is not going to do much to affect distance. All things equal, a ball slightly forward of center and a ball slightly backward of center will result in roughly the same total distance. The forward placed ball will be higher, carry farther, and land softer. The backward placed ball will fly lower, land earlier, and roll more. Conditions and comfort level dictate which shot to use.

I also believe that if a guy is mishitting shots, it's not the ball position, it's the technique (and can also be the wedge setup). A proper pitching technique that utilizes the bounce of the club has a lot of room for error; you can literally hit the ground two inches before the ball and get a good shot off. A lot of people get too steep with the AoA and use the leading edge of the club, which requires precise timing of the bottom of the swing arc to execute.

[Meltdwhiskey]

[QUOTE name="Meltdwhiskey" url="/t/70872/bogey-golfer-only-thread-handicap-index-from-16-22-what-are-you-going-through-working-on-sob-stories/558#post_945512"]   As an alternative to this - I think we bogey guys can try too much of this for our own good sometimes.  In my observation, the fancier and more technical folks at this level try to get, the less effective the outcome.  Unless someone is a REALLY consistent chipper, it might be a good idea to go with: 2 clubs, one ball position, one level of face openness, one level of choking down, etc.  Then once you are really good at that - add something. The two clubs are so you can make two different shots.  One for closer pins with less green and one for when you have more green.  Everything else being the same offers you 2 things.  1) a chance to actually become really reliable with the shot 2) a chance to actually develop an expectation of what the ball will do. [/QUOTE] I get what you're trying to do, keep it simple, which I'm totally all for. My question is, how do you hit different distances? The way I understand the method you're promoting, distance control is determined purely by the length of your swing, which introduces the biggest variable out there. This is why the Dave Pelz made his system, which I think is what @MissouriHack is getting at. You map out your distances for all your wedges by swing length (1/4, 1/2, 3/4 or by clockface, whatever image works best for you) so that you don't have to "feel" the shot. When you're facing a 35 yard shot, you'll know exactly what combination of club & swing length you need to get there. Ball position (assuming you're not getting crazy with the placement) is not going to do much to affect distance. All things equal, a ball slightly forward of center and a ball slightly backward of center will result in roughly the same total distance. The forward placed ball will be higher, carry farther, and land softer. The backward placed ball will fly lower, land earlier, and roll more. Conditions and comfort level dictate which shot to use. I also believe that if a guy is mishitting shots, it's not the ball position, it's the technique (and can also be the wedge setup). A proper pitching technique that utilizes the bounce of the club has a lot of room for error; you can literally hit the ground two inches before the ball and get a good shot off. A lot of people get too steep with the AoA and use the leading edge of the club, which requires precise timing of the bottom of the swing arc to execute.

I was really speaking more to chipping. I don't really have many thoughts on the longer shots. But with chipping, I feel like I see a lot of guys trying to employ a bunch of techniques and ball positions etc and doing a decent amount of mis hitting. I feel like if they went sqare face, mid stance, and same technique every time, they would mis hit less. I might have misunderstood what was originally meant by short game. When I originally read it, I was thinking of around the greens.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Let's start a series of posts with a set of goals that we think we need for each of us to get to single digits or just out of this particular thread. (Then we could start a new one?)

We all have ideas on getting there, we could start sharing them and picking them apart into realistic and attainable goals.

I would like to be shooting 85's on a regular basis by the end of the year.

How about a bogey golfer thread championship?

We could post scores, at the end of the year Take the averages and figure it out. The only thing I wouldn't know how to do is adjust the slope rating of different courses to each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Let's start a series of posts with a set of goals that we think we need for each of us to get to single digits or just out of this particular thread. (Then we could start a new one?)

We all have ideas on getting there, we could start sharing them and picking them apart into realistic and attainable goals.

My goal for 2013 was to start hitting in the 80's as my regular scoring.  I wanted to practice some certain things, but mostly practice more.  It was the first time I joined a course and had availability to hit as many balls as I wanted, play golf without charge, play 5-6 holes if that is all I had time for, etc.  I made a pretty good go of it but I can't say I accomplished it.  I definitely hit in the 80's more, but not as much as I'd like.

For this year, I might have the same goal from a scoring and handicap standpoint, but more than anything I need to fix my swing.  Somewhere between the instruction I got in a certain lesson and what I perceived in that certain lesson caused some serious trouble that I need to fix.  When I saw it on film I was appalled.  I can't believe my handicap didn't go through the roof.  I got a real golf coach a few weeks ago and I'm thrilled.

Step 1: Practice the new move he taught me until it looks great and hope to impress him with my progress

What I had in mind was writing all the steps we are planning to improve and seeing if there might be other suggestions for improvements.

These are my steps: http://thesandtrap.com/t/71694/what-are-your-2014-golf-goals-official-thread/72#post_943576

Each of has us has some idea of what to do, but I am sure there is always room for improvement.

[rkim291968]

What I had in mind was writing all the steps we are planning to improve and seeing if there might be other suggestions for improvements.

These are my steps: http://thesandtrap.com/t/71694/what-are-your-2014-golf-goals-official-thread/72#post_943576

Each of has us has some idea of what to do, but I am sure there is always room for improvement.

If I can master 3 of the 1st 5SKs, I will be out of this thread.   So, for me, it's the year of improving ball striking.  Taking lessons & fitting for clubs will help with the improvement.   To that end, I just made an appointment to fit for driver in two weeks.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

What I had in mind was writing all the steps we are planning to improve and seeing if there might be other suggestions for improvements.

These are my steps: http://thesandtrap.com/t/71694/what-are-your-2014-golf-goals-official-thread/72#post_943576

Each of has us has some idea of what to do, but I am sure there is always room for improvement.

If I can master 3 of the 1st 5SKs, I will be out of this thread.   So, for me, it's the year of improving ball striking.  Taking lessons & fitting for clubs will help with the improvement.   To that end, I just made an appointment to fit for driver in two weeks.

If you can master the first 3 keys, you would pretty much be a 4 handicap.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/67014/keys-vs-handicap-share-your-data#post_844167

This seems like a little more than a year long project.

[rkim291968]

Originally Posted by Lihu

If you can master the first 3 keys, you would pretty much be a 4 handicap.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/67014/keys-vs-handicap-share-your-data#post_844167

This seems like a little more than a year long project.

Aiming high ... no time to waste (at age 52, my body parts are starting to decay It's now or never. )

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

If you can master the first 3 keys, you would pretty much be a 4 handicap.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/67014/keys-vs-handicap-share-your-data#post_844167

This seems like a little more than a year long project.

Aiming high ... no time to waste (at age 52, my body parts are starting to decay   It's now or never. )

On the other hand, none of us needs to make a D1 scholarship cut by "next year".

In long (play on short ), we have plenty of time to enjoy golf.

That's why I created another thread: http://thesandtrap.com/t/72105/how-many-keys-5sk-to-really-start-enjoying-golf#post_941760

We pretty much have the rest of our lives to get to a pretty good level of playing.

[MissouriHack]

Its really hard to say. Not all of us live in southern Cali. So without going out and evaluating where I'm at by playing a couple of rounds its really hard to say. All I know is I was trending down at the end of last season. There's going to be some rust but not much. I will say that if i need help with my swing or any other part of my game this season I'm asking my instructor. No more internet, magazine, youtube guy advise. I'm sticking with the guy in the room and I suggest all of you do the same. If your in this thread and have not taken a lesson yet go. Save your self a lot of frustration. Nothing beats personal instruction. I know you want something more specific than that but I think for now all I can give you is a number. A prediction for your 2014 season Lihu. Things keep going the way they are I think your driving average is going to go up. Fairways play fast when the grass is dead. I hope you guys get some rain soon.

[Lihu]

Its really hard to say. Not all of us live in southern Cali. So without going out and evaluating where I'm at by playing a couple of rounds its really hard to say. All I know is I was trending down at the end of last season. There's going to be some rust but not much. I will say that if i need help with my swing or any other part of my game this season I'm asking my instructor. No more internet, magazine, youtube guy advise. I'm sticking with the guy in the room and I suggest all of you do the same. If your in this thread and have not taken a lesson yet go. Save your self a lot of frustration. Nothing beats personal instruction. I know you want something more specific than that but I think for now all I can give you is a number.

A prediction for your 2014 season Lihu. Things keep going the way they are I think your driving average is going to go up. Fairways play fast when the grass is dead. I hope you guys get some rain soon.

We still irrigate here, but I think the drought will affect us pretty soon. You might be right that the fairways will dry up in the summer for super long drives.

I hope you are wrong, though. We need a lot more rain. This goes for all of CA and OR.