Pitching Techniques

[War Eagle]

Along the lines of Moxley's thread on chipping ... pitching is probably the worst part of my game and I've tried all of the below. 

1. Phil Rodgers - bounce used, ball middle to forward, weight dependent on shot, slide clubface under ball like a throwing motion, hands even with zipper - IMO, difficult to master. Preaches the benefit of using trajectory to control distance.
2. Dave Pelz - ball in middle of stance, front foot flared toward target, stance slightly open, hands slightly ahead of ball, not sure about bounce
3. Monte Scheinblum - similar to Rodgers IMO, ball in middle of stance, keep trail arm moving like tossing a ball underhand
4. Mickelson - hinge and hold - ball forward, use bounce, square stance, front front slightly open, hinge asap on way back, important to maintain flat lead wrist and extend thru the shot
5. James Sieckmann - sternum ahead of ball, upper body slight open, weight forward, ball position middle

Would be interesting to hear comments on all of these or others -  what's missing is grip/grip pressure, whether to open clubface on way back, variations on the above, etc. I'm currently on a very weak top hand grip and putting the index finger of my trail hand down the shaft. Seem to make better contact and maintain proper trajectory this way, rather than my normal swing grip. 

[iacas]

That's what I teach people.

[War Eagle]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's what I teach people.

Thank you for replying. Will review the other thread. The takeaway of your method seems most like the Mickelson hinge and hold, but that is where the similarity stops. 

[iacas]

58 minutes ago, War Eagle said:

Thank you for replying. Will review the other thread. The takeaway of your method seems most like the Mickelson hinge and hold, but that is where the similarity stops. 

No, it's not like Mickelson's method.

There's no "hold" at all and "holding" after "hinging" doesn't use the bounce much at all - it keeps the shaft leaning forward and engages the leading edge.

[War Eagle]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

No, it's not like Mickelson's method.

There's no "hold" at all and "holding" after "hinging" doesn't use the bounce much at all - it keeps the shaft leaning forward and engages the leading edge.

Sorry, I was only comparing the "hinge" part to your takeaway. 

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, War Eagle said:

Sorry, I was only comparing the "hinge" part to your takeaway. 

Yeah, I totally misread what you wrote. You said the takeaway part. Total brain fart on my part. Sorry for wasting your time. I apologize.

I can only think I must have been in a rush, but that's a lousy excuse.  Again, sorry.

Let me know what you think of the video. It's pretty similar to Sieckmann, Ridyard, etc.

[Etzwane]

I'm using a method that for a standard shot exposes the bounce by playing the ball at or just before low point. This was advertised in a series of video by Dan Carraher.  I don't have a lot of "touch" so methods that require presenting a vertical shaft for a centered ball aren't easy for me (beyond just a putting stroke à la Runyan) and Dan's approach is a no brainer for me.

[War Eagle]

3 hours ago, Etzwane said:

I'm using a method that for a standard shot exposes the bounce by playing the ball at or just before low point. This was advertised in a series of video by Dan Carraher.  I don't have a lot of "touch" so methods that require presenting a vertical shaft for a centered ball aren't easy for me (beyond just a putting stroke à la Runyan) and Dan's approach is a no brainer for me.

I'm a little familiar with Carraher's method. Doesn't he believe the low spot of the pitch swing to be under the lead shoulder ? I saw a YT video with him pitching off a putting green with the ball way forward. 

That would be in contradiction to some of the other teachers like Pelz. 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, War Eagle said:

I'm a little familiar with Carraher's method. Doesn't he believe the low spot of the pitch swing to be under the lead shoulder ? I saw a YT video with him pitching off a putting green with the ball way forward. 

That would be in contradiction to some of the other teachers like Pelz. 

I wouldn't follow much of what Pelz says.

The low point of virtually any swing tends to be near the left shoulder if things are left alone.

I play the ball center to forward of center. Playing it back invites the leading edge into the conversation, and on a pitch, I don't want that.

[War Eagle]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

I wouldn't follow much of what Pelz says.

The low point of virtually any swing tends to be near the left shoulder if things are left alone.

I play the ball center to forward of center. Playing it back invites the leading edge into the conversation, and on a pitch, I don't want that.

Agreed - I'm also of the opinion after studying Phil Rodgers' technique that the weight does not also have to be favoring the lead leg. 

@Iacas - interested to find out with your method the benefit of the float load. Does that not increase wrist cock and AOA and introduce some timing into the pitch ? 

I will offer that I've not tried your method but will this weekend. 

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, War Eagle said:

Agreed - I'm also of the opinion after studying Phil Rodgers' technique that the weight does not also have to be favoring the lead leg. 

@Iacas - interested to find out with your method the benefit of the float load. Does that not increase wrist cock and AOA and introduce some timing into the pitch ? 

I will offer that I've not tried your method but will this weekend. 

No. Gravity takes care of it.

Look at how quickly the wrists unload in this video:

From this topic:

There's no "timing" because you're not doing much of anything on the downswing. You're pivoting, basically.

[Jack Watson]

I like Rogers deal.

The only comment I have on the whole pitching thing is a strong or even neutral left hand grip makes it awkward for me.  Weak left hand gets out of the way of the und hand toss much better for me.  

[War Eagle]

9 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I like Rogers deal.

The only comment I have on the whole pitching thing is a strong or even neutral left hand grip makes it awkward for me.  Weak left hand gets out of the way of the und hand toss much better for me.  

I also like what Rodgers has to say, especially about stopping the ball with trajectory instead of spin and the long flat spot. There used to be a YT video of a 3-hour clinic with him, but it seems to have disappeared. When done correctly, it does feel like an underhand toss. The methods of Iacas, Scheinblum, Carraher, Utley all seem to be similar.

Edited November 11, 2017 by War Eagle

[MarvChamp]

2 hours ago, War Eagle said:

I also like what Rodgers has to say, especially about stopping the ball with trajectory instead of spin and the long flat spot. There used to be a YT video of a 3-hour clinic with him, but it seems to have disappeared. When done correctly, it does feel like an underhand toss. The methods of Iacas, Scheinblum, Carraher, Utley all seem to be similar.

Way back when I first took golf seriously, my pro coach pretty much insisted that I find and read what Phil Rodgers had to say about the short game pitching and chipping. He was our guru. Weight can actually "feel" a little back at address in order to get the underhand feel. The chipping was a little unorthodox but has worked well for me over the years. This all makes me nostalgic...To get out there and practice. Thanks for the topic, -Marv

[Jacktgolf]

I don't think much of my technique anymore, I just play the game. Technique in my opinion has nothing to do with good pitching, it's all feel. Whether you use the leading edge, the bounce, take a divot or not doesn't matter. It's all feel and distance control. Reading the green on a pitch helps too, whether it's downhill, uphill, right to left, etc. But I never think of technique when I do it. It's too hard for anyone's mind to consciously force a motion from start to finish with all this in mind and still be a good pitcher of the ball. Just not going to happen mate.

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, Jacktgolf said:

Technique in my opinion has nothing to do with good pitching, it's all feel.

Oh man. It may feel like I'm following you around and disagreeing with a bunch of stuff you're saying, but that's not the case. This is just the time I have to catch up on the forum tonight… and it just so happens to be the time you're on.

With bad technique, your natural feel can't express itself. Technique matters quite a bit. With the proper technique, your feel can express itself.

Lebron James has great touch (most of us do, but stay with me here…). Tell him to hit a soft pitch over a bunker with a left-handed club, though, and good luck… he won't be able to do it. Because he doesn't know what technique to use.

Hell, give yourself a lefty club and you won't do it too well. Why? You're the same person with the same feel. Because your technique will be off.

25 minutes ago, Jacktgolf said:

But I never think of technique when I do it. It's too hard for anyone's mind to consciously force a motion from start to finish with all this in mind and still be a good pitcher of the ball. Just not going to happen mate.

The point of practicing the right technique is so that you don't have to "think about it" during play. You just execute.

But you still need to have practiced and ingrained the right technique to begin with.

[Jack Watson]

Caraher is a low hands guy.  That's his swing.  Personally I prefer Rogers.   I am not a low hands guy though ymmv.

I am against float load.  No need for it imo.  I like weight fifty fifty.

Theres a whole world in a pitch.  So many variations shots lies spiny no spin trajectory etc.

Theres so much to find in pitching imo.  You can't cover much in a quick vid.

Some keys for me don't take the club inside.  No holding lower body still.  Weak grip.  No manipulation of the club feels like a massive flip.

ZERO grip pressure through impact.  No manipulation of the swing!

gotta have a really good grip to allow soft hands.  Most times okay to hit behind it...Never too quick...

A little damp grass is fun for a spiny variation you can get the one skid stop on a dimer.  

Once you can let the club swing and not manipulate at all you can go on from there with little variations.  Transition is crucial.  Never quick!  It kinda seems like the clubhead hangs there for a minute let it.  Don't force it back down let it fall.

IMO it's practice practice practice.  Metronome can be very helpful if you know how to use it for this...

At first you can fluff the ball up or whatever for a nice lie but after you get the basics down never do that.  Just drop the ball and hit it wherever.  Practice the most challenging slopes up down that you have available.

If you have not spent time on developing a smooth unmanipulated pitch swing and begin to do so it becomes really fun in a lot of cases the margin for error is really large.  

Have fun with it this is fun stuff