Similar Clubs, Distinctly Different Results G15, G400 Drivers

[sofingaw]

Hey all!

At the risk of overthinking this, I want to present some puzzling results I had with two clubs with seemingly very similar specs that produced very different results for me. Both drivers, my old one and my new one. 

Ping G15 - TFC149D Stiff shaft, 60g, 5.3 ‘Torque’ 204g clubhead weight. Swingweight D3. 

Ping G400 - Alta CB 55 Stiff shaft, 59g, 4.9 ‘Torque’, 206 clubhead weight. Swingweight D3. 

Both clubs 45.75” long. 

Why did I hit the G15 everywhere but the fairway and only about 250 on my very best shots, while I’m consistently putting the G400 in the fairway or first cut between 270-295 yards out? 

What specs or other factors am I missing here that could account for the differences? Are the differences in the numbers above really very significant? Overall club weight looks to be within a gram or two, shaft weight almost identical, head weight very close, and they are the same length. 

The only thing other thing I know is different is the grip. G15 grip was 1/32” below ‘standard’ size according to Ping sizing (Aqua color, Ping ID8). G400 grip feels like standard (Golf Pride Tour Velvet). 

Obviously the head design is different by a large margin, with the G400 only displacing 445cc to the G15’s 460cc. Plus the crown design, CG placement, etc. Though the CG is well back and centered left-right on both clubs.

As for shafts, they are nominally similar, at least ‘by the numbers’ and I read that they are both ‘counter balanced’, though I do not know by how much. The Alta feels just a bit stiffer in the handle end than the TFC to me, which I do like.  

To be clear, I am not complaining about the results, nor will I be making any ‘tweaks’ to try and fix something that is not broken... but I guess I just can’t tell what made the difference here. I feel like so little has changed, but the results are starkly different.

For the next few (hopefully many) years, I plan to just keep hitting this thing pure. But I don’t know what I changed here, and for future purchases, I would like to know what factors matter for me. This change did not make that clear at all other than G400>G15?

Any ideas? Thanks!

[boogielicious]

20 minutes ago, sofingaw said:

Hey all!

At the risk of overthinking this, I want to present some puzzling results I had with two clubs with seemingly very similar specs that produced very different results for me. Both drivers, my old one and my new one. 

Ping G15 - TFC149D Stiff shaft, 60g, 5.3 ‘Torque’ 204g clubhead weight. Swingweight D3. 

Ping G400 - Alta CB 55 Stiff shaft, 59g, 4.9 ‘Torque’, 206 clubhead weight. Swingweight D3. 

Both clubs 45.75” long. 

Why did I hit the G15 everywhere but the fairway and only about 250 on my very best shots, while I’m consistently putting the G400 in the fairway or first cut between 270-295 yards out? 

What specs or other factors am I missing here that could account for the differences? Are the differences in the numbers above really very significant? Overall club weight looks to be within a gram or two, shaft weight almost identical, head weight very close, and they are the same length. 

The only thing other thing I know is different is the grip. G15 grip was 1/32” below ‘standard’ size according to Ping sizing (Aqua color, Ping ID8). G400 grip feels like standard (Golf Pride Tour Velvet). 

Obviously the head design is different by a large margin, with the G400 only displacing 445cc to the G15’s 460cc. Plus the crown design, CG placement, etc. Though the CG is well back and centered left-right on both clubs.

As for shafts, they are nominally similar, at least ‘by the numbers’ and I read that they are both ‘counter balanced’, though I do not know by how much. The Alta feels just a bit stiffer in the handle end than the TFC to me, which I do like.  

To be clear, I am not complaining about the results, nor will I be making any ‘tweaks’ to try and fix something that is not broken... but I guess I just can’t tell what made the difference here. I feel like so little has changed, but the results are starkly different.

For the next few (hopefully many) years, I plan to just keep hitting this thing pure. But I don’t know what I changed here, and for future purchases, I would like to know what factors matter for me. This change did not make that clear at all other than G400>G15?

Any ideas? Thanks!

There are a few factors to consider like which head is easier for you to aim and how the shafts actually feels during your swing. The G400 may fit your eye better, so you can set up more consistent. The G15 May have been harder to do this, so you missed more.

[billchao]

41 minutes ago, sofingaw said:

What specs or other factors am I missing here that could account for the differences?

8 years of technological advancement. The MOI of the G400 is off the charts. It is ridiculously forgiving.

I wrote about it here:

https://thesandtrap.com/b/clubs/ping_g400_driver_review

[sofingaw]

41 minutes ago, billchao said:

8 years of technological advancement. The MOI of the G400 is off the charts. It is ridiculously forgiving.

I wrote about it here:

https://thesandtrap.com/b/clubs/ping_g400_driver_review

Great review! I definitely read that prior to buying, so thanks for that!

I guess my question is what does ‘technological advancement’ mean in specific? What does MOI mean in layman’s terms, and how did they achieve this highest ever measure of it? 

And still, what specifically is so different between the clubs that made all the difference. 

Anyone can say ‘it’s like, mad advanced, bruh!’ (And these club companies are great at that, true or not!) 

But what numbers should I look for in future clubs and shafts? I ask because if I was going off what I had hit so poorly before (G15) I would have looked at clubs that had heads and shafts that were pretty much the opposite of the club I couldn’t keep in play, instead of one that was nominally similar aside mysterious unexplained ‘advancements’. 

Does that make sense?

Don't get me wrong. I am a believer that these advancements are real. The results prove it. I just don’t know what they are, exactly...

I guess the truth is, I’ll try anything and stick with what works regardless of the numbers.

My golf game has improved, but curiosity remains dissatisfied. I’m missing something still. 

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

There are a few factors to consider like which head is easier for you to aim and how the shafts actually feels during your swing. The G400 may fit your eye better, so you can set up more consistent. The G15 May have been harder to do this, so you missed more.

Could be! The shaft does feel different. But since the specs provided for each are so similar, I can’t help but to wonder why it does feel different. Guess it’s not really important, but it’s puzzling to me. I feel like there’s a ‘missing spec’ somewhere that isn’t part of the marketing specs that must be the difference maker. 

Thanks for the answers!

Edited July 15, 2018 by sofingaw

[billchao]

3 minutes ago, sofingaw said:

Does that make sense?

Honestly, no. You're trying to quantify design elements that are listed in a database somewhere but not made available to the general public. I can't tell you what specs are different in the G15 and the G400 because I'm not a Ping engineer, and even if I was, I couldn't tell you.

The basics of design technology advancing is they keep finding new and more ways to remove weight where it isn't necessary to add it to places where it's beneficial for golf. That's why OEMs use different materials for the heads instead of all titanium. They've come up with different ways to reinforce the clubface so they can make them thinner without breaking. Some OEMs have gotten creative with weight ports and cores for CoG purposes.

With the G400, they designed the aerodynamics of the Dragonfly Crown with the heel ahead of the toe, where other manufacturers studied aerodynamics with the face square. The reasoning is that the club spends very little time moving with a square face, so that innovation contributes.

You're free to buy a G400 and cut it open, then cut your G15 open and compare the two. Or you could be like the rest of us and trust your fitter and the results 😀

[GOATee]

Yes there are many differences other than shaft weight/flex and driver head weight that matter.

For the shaft, look at the torque difference.  The 4.9 vs 5.3 torque shows the newer shaft is actually stiffer.  You probably need the stiffer shaft for a 270 yard driver swing.

For the head, the G400 vs G15 head has a ridiculous number of differences.  MOI higher, CG further back, smaller head more aerodynamic, probably lower spin than older models.

MOI means the face twists less on off-center hits, achieved by putting the CG further back through using lighter materials.

The more aerodynamic smaller head may feel easier to control in the swing and give higher clubhead speed.

Newer models usually have lower spin than older models.  Maybe your spin was too high on the older models and this was losing you distance.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2018 by GOATee

[sofingaw]

19 hours ago, GOATee said:

Yes there are many differences other than shaft weight/flex and driver head weight that matter.

For the shaft, look at the torque difference.  The 4.9 vs 5.3 torque shows the newer shaft is actually stiffer.  You probably need the stiffer shaft for a 270 yard driver swing.

For the head, the G400 vs G15 head has a ridiculous number of differences.  MOI higher, CG further back, smaller head more aerodynamic, probably lower spin than older models.

MOI means the face twists less on off-center hits, achieved by putting the CG further back through using lighter materials.

The more aerodynamic smaller head may feel easier to control in the swing and give higher clubhead speed.

Newer models usually have lower spin than older models.  Maybe your spin was too high on the older models and this was losing you distance.

 

 

Thanks! This makes sense. 

[saevel25]

On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 7:48 AM, billchao said:

8 years of technological advancement. The MOI of the G400 is off the charts. It is ridiculously forgiving.

I am not sure that the higher MOI actually reduces the spin axis tilt do to large difference between swing path and clubface. It does help resist twisting of the clubhead on off center strikes in the horizontal plane (heel to toe). If you hit it towards the toe, ball speed is maintained more and the face isn't twisted open as much. I am not sure in terms of degrees how much that is between the G15 and the G400.

On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 8:28 AM, sofingaw said:

I guess my question is what does ‘technological advancement’ mean in specific? What does MOI mean in layman’s terms, and how did they achieve this highest ever measure of it? 

See my response to @billchao, but check out this, http://ralphmaltby.com/how-moment-of-inertia-moi-affects-driver-playability/

On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 8:28 AM, sofingaw said:

But what numbers should I look for in future clubs and shafts? I ask because if I was going off what I had hit so poorly before (G15) I would have looked at clubs that had heads and shafts that were pretty much the opposite of the club I couldn’t keep in play, instead of one that was nominally similar aside mysterious unexplained ‘advancements’. 

No way to say. Even if you get a 70 gram, stiff golf shaft, they could produce completely different results based on how you respond to the golf shaft. The bend profile is actually different despite the specs actually being the same. Most golf shaft companies do no publish the bend profiles.

You will need to get fitted, and figure it out by trial and error.

On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 8:28 AM, sofingaw said:

Could be! The shaft does feel different. But since the specs provided for each are so similar, I can’t help but to wonder why it does feel different. Guess it’s not really important, but it’s puzzling to me. I feel like there’s a ‘missing spec’ somewhere that isn’t part of the marketing specs that must be the difference maker. 

Thanks for the answers!

Possible.