Effect of Adding Heel Weight

[Hacker James]

Titleist sells weight kits for their 913,915,917 drivers. What effect would adding a heavier weight have on performance, trajectory. Specifically going from 9g to 11g (or higher) ?

I realize that each gram added results in a 2 point shift in swing weight, but would like to know what the expected result may be.

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Hacker James

[billchao]

12 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

Titleist sells weight kits for their 913,915,917 drivers. What effect would adding a heavier weight have on performance, trajectory. Specifically going from 9g to 11g (or higher) ?

I realize that each gram added results in a 2 point shift in swing weight, but would like to know what the expected result may be.

 

I wasn't aware Titleist had an adjustable heel/toe weight. They have a weight port in the sole of the club near the rear for swingweight purposes that they say doesn't affect the ball flight. I guess technically the CoG would get shifted slightly back if you go heavier so you might get a few more RPMs, but it's probably not enough of a difference to be noticeable.

The 917 driver does use their Surefit CG weight that allows you to shift the CoG more towards the toe or heel if you are looking for a fade or draw bias.

[Hacker James]

7 minutes ago, billchao said:

I wasn't aware Titleist had an adjustable heel/toe weight. They have a weight port in the sole of the club near the rear for swingweight purposes that they say doesn't affect the ball flight. I guess technically the CoG would get shifted slightly back if you go heavier so you might get a few more RPMs, but it's probably not enough of a difference to be noticeable.

The 917 driver does use their Surefit CG weight that allows you to shift the CoG more towards the toe or heel if you are looking for a fade or draw bias.

They have a chevron shaped weight that screws into the rear in the area you mention. So, while it is replaceable, it is not actually adjustable like the CG "tunnel"  (for lack of a better word). I am not sure I buy into that however as it is similar to the sliding weight in Taylor Made SLDR

[billchao]

4 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

I am not sure I buy into that however as it is similar to the sliding weight in Taylor Made SLDR

What are you not buying? It's nothing like the sliding weight in the SLDR.

The weight port on the Titleist 913 and 915 drivers is aligned with the horizontal center of the driver. Changing the weight does not shift the weight along the horizontal axis of the club, so you're not affecting CoG along that axis, which means you're not affecting the horizontal gear effect of the club (which is how the sliding weight on the SLDR or adjustable weights on the Callaway Big Bertha Alpha driver works). Changing to a heavier weight on the Titleist 913 driver won't make the ball draw or fade more.

Like I said, technically by changing the weight you will affect CoG on the Z-axis (front to back of the club), but it's such a tiny amount of weight on the axis with the most mass that the effect it creates is likely negligible.

[Hacker James]

In reading how the CG weight on  the 917 functions, they show the directional placement of the weight indicating fade or draw bias, in addition to having several weights to choose from. The center/rear placement of weight on the rear of the 913 and 915 would not effect draw or fade, but merely swing weight itself. Granted, the 917 CG weight is not moveable, but can inserted in two different directions, but along the same axis. To me this indicates something akin to the SLDR but in lieu of actual weight movement, you are changing weight placement Perhaps, I misunderstood  given I have not personally seen the 917 but only the video on the Titleist site.

Since my OP, I looked up a few articles that basically state changing a centered rear weight will not affect fade/draw bias but does change the swing weight which may or may not change results for an individual and also different individuals experience different results in terms of distance, launch angle and boils down to personal preference. Some achieved greater distance with lighter SW ,others had better results going heavier.

 

also, I note in my prior posts I was conflating heel with rear and have made appropriate edits. I can see how that could be easily misinterpreted.

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Hacker James

[billchao]

1 hour ago, Hacker James said:

In reading how the CG weight on  the 917 functions, they show the directional placement of the weight indicating fade or draw bias, in addition to having several weights to choose from.

Out of the three generations you mentioned, the 917 is the only club capable of changing horizontal gear effect.

1 hour ago, Hacker James said:

The center/rear placement of weight on the rear of the 913 and 915 would not effect draw or fade, but merely swing weight itself.

Yea, you kind of lumped all three together, but the design is different in the 917.

1 hour ago, Hacker James said:

Granted, the 917 CG weight is not moveable, but can inserted in two different directions, but along the same axis. To me this indicates something akin to the SLDR but in lieu of actual weight movement, you are changing weight placement

The fade/draw biased rods are heavier on one end than the other so when you insert one, you're changing the horizontal location of the CoG. The spin bias comes from gear effect. TaylorMade achieved this via sliding weights and Callaway with multiple ports and interchangeable weights. I kind of touched on this.

2 hours ago, Hacker James said:

Since my OP, I looked up a few articles that basically state changing a centered rear weight will not affect fade/draw bias but does change the swing weight which may or may not change results for an individual and also different individuals experience different results in terms of distance, launch angle and boils down to personal preference. Some achieved greater distance with lighter SW ,others had better results going heavier.

Changing swing weight doesn't change the physical properties of the club, but it may affect how a player reacts to it during the swing. The club itself isn't actually producing the difference in results, the player is.

[LL24]

By changing the weight from 9g to 11g or heavier the swing weight goes up as mentioned and head weight. As head weight goes up it will take more effort to close the club face. 2g of increase will make very little diffence but if you go up 4g or 6g you will be able to pick it up more. As head weight increases the shaft will play softer in flex. This is why for a 3 wood which is about 12g heavier than the driver you topically tip 1" before install. So the ball flight might be up a bit and the shaft will feel easier to load.

As to the SureFit CG it does help with directional control but not significantly. 12g of weight is just not enough to shift the CG enough to see a significant ball flight difference. Lastly adding weight will increase the MOI of the driver, but again couple of grams will be insignificant.

[boogielicious]

7 hours ago, LL24 said:

By changing the weight from 9g to 11g or heavier the swing weight goes up as mentioned and head weight. As head weight goes up it will take more effort to close the club face. 2g of increase will make very little diffence but if you go up 4g or 6g you will be able to pick it up more. As head weight increases the shaft will play softer in flex. This is why for a 3 wood which is about 12g heavier than the driver you topically tip 1" before install. So the ball flight might be up a bit and the shaft will feel easier to load.

As to the SureFit CG it does help with directional control but not significantly. 12g of weight is just not enough to shift the CG enough to see a significant ball flight difference. Lastly adding weight will increase the MOI of the driver, but again couple of grams will be insignificant.

I asked a very good fitter about this and he stated than a couple of grams will not make much difference if the weight is not able to be moved around the head. If you are just adding weight to a static spot, the face close rate will not change much. The weight needs to be re-positioned heel or toe to change the face close rate.

[Hacker James]

9 hours ago, LL24 said:

By changing the weight from 9g to 11g or heavier the swing weight goes up as mentioned and head weight. As head weight goes up it will take more effort to close the club face. 2g of increase will make very little diffence but if you go up 4g or 6g you will be able to pick it up more. As head weight increases the shaft will play softer in flex. This is why for a 3 wood which is about 12g heavier than the driver you topically tip 1" before install. So the ball flight might be up a bit and the shaft will feel easier to load.

As to the SureFit CG it does help with directional control but not significantly. 12g of weight is just not enough to shift the CG enough to see a significant ball flight difference. Lastly adding weight will increase the MOI of the driver, but again couple of grams will be insignificant.

Good information and more or less re-affirms my understanding. I had not thought about face closure rate. Since I did not get the 917, the cg weight transfer aspect is  moot. I had only mentioned it to point out that as about the only change from the 915 to the 917. I still maintain that the cg weight shift in the 917 is similar to the TM SLDR. One is an external weight movement that is visible, the other an internal weight shift that is not. Both achieve the same effect as does the MWT of other clubs.

Bottom line is that I probably will not get the weight kit..  Thanks.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Hacker James

[saevel25]

On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:12 PM, Hacker James said:

Titleist sells weight kits for their 913,915,917 drivers. What effect would adding a heavier weight have on performance, trajectory. Specifically going from 9g to 11g (or higher) ?

I realize that each gram added results in a 2 point shift in swing weight, but would like to know what the expected result may be.

 

Those head weights are to fine tune a club fitting. They do not significantly change ball flight. It might adjust the feel of the club a bit for you. If you add weight, and if the weight is low and forward, then it will knock off a little backspin and cause it to launch slightly lower. If you change the weight low and back, it would knock of less spin than if the weight was low and forward.

On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:22 PM, billchao said:

The fade/draw biased rods are heavier on one end than the other so when you insert one, you're changing the horizontal location of the CoG. The spin bias comes from gear effect. TaylorMade achieved this via sliding weights and Callaway with multiple ports and interchangeable weights. I kind of touched on this.

This ^

When you move the weight horizontally, it shifts the CG location left or right. The further the CG is away from the contact point on the face, it produces a gear effect. This is why toe shots tend to have a draw bias and heel shot shave a fade bias, depending on swing path.

9 hours ago, LL24 said:

As head weight goes up it will take more effort to close the club face. 2g of increase will make very little diffence but if you go up 4g or 6g you will be able to pick it up more. As head weight increases the shaft will play softer in flex. This is why for a 3 wood which is about 12g heavier than the driver you topically tip 1" before install. So the ball flight might be up a bit and the shaft will feel easier to load.

I would say the mass change you get from the interchangeable weights is negliable in making it harder to close the clubface.

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

The weight needs to be re-positioned heel or toe to change the face close rate.

I was mulling this over just now. I think adding weight to the heel would cause the face to close quicker.

[Hacker James]

anyone considering weight kits, you may remember my stating awhile back, that a nickel affixed temporarily to the rear of a club adds 5 grams and is not much larger than what's there.

[LL24]

1 hour ago, Hacker James said:

anyone considering weight kits, you may remember my stating awhile back, that a nickel affixed temporarily to the rear of a club adds 5 grams and is not much larger than what's there.

I would buy some lead tape and test to see what couple of grams will do to performance and feel for you before buying the kit. Just make sure you are putting it close to where the weights would go.

Assuming the shaft, shaft length, grip weight all stay the same, adding swing weight will/may

1. Increase launch as there will be more shaft deflection (even if the additional weight is put forward)

2.change your strike pattern on the face. If the swing weight is too low for a person strikes tend to be heely and more spread out.

3. Your feel. There is a best swing weight for each person. For me D3.5 on my gamer works the best. At D4.5 my release gets inconsistent and I tend to block a lot to the right. That's also because D3.5 is the upper limit for me. The higher the swing weight the harder you have to work to close the face even if the weight is in the heel of the club. Why? You are rotating the club in the axis of the shaft not around the CG of the club head.

4. The MOI and CG of the heads. But the changes are small

Best thing is to use some lead tape and test it yourself even on your irons. Trevino and Faldo and many other tour players do this all the time when they test for new equipment, thus you will see many pros with lead tape on their clubs. They are looking for the right feel. 

[billchao]

2 hours ago, Hacker James said:

I still maintain that the cg weight shift in the 917 is similar to the TM SLDR.

It is. We've already discussed this.

[Hacker James]

FWIW, just received an aftermarket heel weight (14g) for my 913 D3 from China. I was a bit dubious but it did eventually arrive after about 6 weeks and appears to be new. Can't really say for sure, but swing feels a bit better and dimple pattern is consistent. However, as with anything; there is always the "honeymoon" effect. In any event $4.74 including shipping from China, who should complain?   I will have the swing weight checked when I get a chance, but should go up 2.5 pts.