Kornheiser: NFL to decline?

[Kapanda]

I see what you're saying, but that's irrelevant to the point I was making.

Odds of having sleeping problems for 50 years by playing HS football are not that high, that's all I said. Not whether it is possible, whether it does or does not happen, or whether there is incentive to play unsafely. Only that the odds of such high health problems stemming from HS football being realised are probably low.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

Being a bit dramatic aren't we?

Odds of that happening at high-school probably aren't any higher than odds of a kid getting into a bad car accident.

Yes he was, but not wrong.  However, driving (in socal especially) is a required necessity down here.  Football is not.  I can and will encourage my kids to play baseball, golf, basketball, etc and discourage football.  I played football in high school (and for the record my career ended halfway through my senior year with a broken leg), so if they really want to, I have no idea what I will say.  (My oldest is 3 so I'm not making any declarations right now)

EDIT:  Lucius said what I was going for here while I was writing this, and much more eloquently.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The press has sunk it's teeth into this and it's in the spotlight.  Concussions are part of football just like car accidents are part of NASCAR and CART.  If you sign up for the sport you sign up for the risks.

I'm all for inproving technology to reduce the trauma and believe coaches and owners should ensure proper medical treatment is provided to the players but the media is getting a bit carried away.

I disagree with you here.  Well, about the bold part ... the rest I do agree with.  I don't think they are getting carried away at all.  Yes, Junior Seau's death probably pushed it over the edge a bit more, but the long term effects of playing, and specifically concussions, have been in the spotlight for quite awhile now.  Its been a snowball effect over several years of learning from science and former players what happens to their brains over years of playing football.

Using NASCAR as an example, when Dale Earnhardt died, and they realized they had technology that could prevent that from happening again, they IMMEDIATELY started requiring all drivers to use it.  (OK I confess that may be a bit of hyperbole, I don't actually remember if it was immediately, but they knew they needed to make a change quickly, and they did)  If there are helmets out there that are better at preventing concussions (and supposedly there are and have been for awhile), why in the world hasn't the NFL made them mandatory by now?  I think they are playing with fire.  They are and have been the most popular thing going in the US and they think that nothing can change that.

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

I see what you're saying, but that's irrelevant to the point I was making.

Odds of having sleeping problems for 50 years by playing HS football are not that high, that's all I said. Not whether it is possible, whether it does or does not happen, or whether there is incentive to play unsafely. Only that the odds of such high health problems stemming from HS football being realised are probably low.

I agree, but a competitive HS team is where it's going to happen most and it sounds like that's what you're dealing with. Most of the really bad symptoms occur over a long period of injuries, and I doubt your son would see enough games to get exposed to enough punishment. But still, one hit in the wrong place could cause issues of some kind. Whether it's a lifetime of crippling brain problems or a headache, I certainly wouldn't want a concussion even if the effects went away. Might need that brain one day.

[jamo]

If there are helmets out there that are better at preventing concussions (and supposedly there are and have been for awhile), why in the world hasn't the NFL made them mandatory by now?  I think they are playing with fire.  They are and have been the most popular thing going in the US and they think that nothing can change that.

Probably because most rookies come into the league with the new helmets anyway and they don't want to force the older players to wear something that feels uncomfortable.

[Kapanda]

Then it becomes quite ambiguous and subjective.

I'm usually the one to use the rebuttal you just used, Golfingdad, to the point that I'm sure it must have a special name.

But the point of using the driving analogy was to show the probability level. Bad car accidents tend to be low probability events. At such low probability, I would certainly argue that the risk of getting a huge health problem from playing HS football is so low that playing the game purely for fun is justifiable.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

But the point of using the driving analogy was to show the probability level. Bad car accidents tend to be low probability events. At such low probability, I would certainly argue that the risk of getting a huge health problem from playing HS football is so low that playing the game purely for fun is justifiable.

Point taken.  I'm not going to disagree that the risk of long term serious health problems from only high school football is really low.  And if football was the only extracurricular activity offered in high school I probably would not hesitate to encourage my kids to play.  But since they have so many other options, nearly all of which are certainly less risky (maybe not wrestling) then I think its up to me to try and steer them in those directions.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by jamo

Probably because most rookies come into the league with the new helmets anyway and they don't want to force the older players to wear something that feels uncomfortable.

Well, if that's true and they are just grandfathering in the old guys (Craig MacTavish, anyone?) then at least its something.  I just had not heard any news on helmet rule changes, and now would seem like a good time for the NFL to get some positive publicity on that front.

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Point taken.  I'm not going to disagree that the risk of long term serious health problems from only high school football is really low.  And if football was the only extracurricular activity offered in high school I probably would not hesitate to encourage my kids to play.  But since they have so many other options, nearly all of which are certainly less risky (maybe not wrestling) then I think its up to me to try and steer them in those directions.

I wouldn't have my kids wrestle if I had any. Not because of injury, since it's not as much about impact as football, but for other reasons. For one thing, weight classes literally cause anorexia and excessive weight training. It's the dirtiest and most disgusting equipment ever and everyone gets fungus and skin infections all the time. The coaches work the athletes too hard, which I understand from a certain standpoint but it's overdone and they don't do enough skill training. Also the military recruiters, who are the scum of the earth, love to hound the wrestling team unlike anyone else.

The matches themselves are a lot of fun and I'd join the team sans workouts, since usually only minor injuries occur in competition. If I had kids I'd allow them to train in any traditional martial art, play hockey, baseball, and maybe even lacrosse, certainly at a level below college.

I do come from a HS that is highly competitive in wrestling (and not much else) so obviously my experience with my friends on the team is a bit different than some.

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

I wouldn't have my kids wrestle if I had any. Not because of injury, since it's not as much about impact as football, but for other reasons. For one thing, weight classes literally cause anorexia and excessive weight training. It's the dirtiest and most disgusting equipment ever and everyone gets fungus and skin infections all the time. The coaches work the athletes too hard, which I understand from a certain standpoint but it's overdone and they don't do enough skill training. Also the military recruiters, who are the scum of the earth, love to hound the wrestling team unlike anyone else.

The matches themselves are a lot of fun and I'd join the team sans workouts, since usually only minor injuries occur in competition. If I had kids I'd allow them to train in any traditional martial art, play hockey, baseball, and maybe even lacrosse, certainly at a level below college.

I do come from a HS that is highly competitive in wrestling (and not much else) so obviously my experience with my friends on the team is a bit different than some.

Man, your kids are going to have a blast going growing up with the captain of the fun police!

[x129]

For the NCAA the numbers come out all the time. Here is one for a quick google for DI. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5490686 The quick translation ~25 (at most. it depends on the year) athletic programs make money and most of that money comes from football. 68 football programs make money. Pretty much all of those schools are in BCS conferences. You can futz the numbers a bit and it is hard to figure out how things like alumni donations and where to credit some apparel sales but they are generally accepted. I am guessing pretty much no one makes money in DIAA or below.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Source?

In HS, I have never seen a comprehensive study. I have seen some articles where the a top 25 teams  in the country were making ~30k in profit. These teams also had TV&radio; deals and pretty decent merchandise sales. I have also seen some for pretty good Florida high schools (who didn't have media deals) where the income was ~100k and the expenses were 80k. However things like coaches stipend (30k), transportation (covered by the district) and security (provided by the city) were not counted in the expenses.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Source?  I've been closely associated with these things for decades, and their are on-campus programs and institutions that depend on football revenue for their spending expenditures and improvements.

Brandon

[x129]

So you glorify the hits but you never took part.  My experience was that a huge number of the big hits were always unnecessary and added nothing to the game.  They were almost late and/or illegal. And in HS when you had a mismatch between a 150lb guy and a 225lb one.   The hard ones that caused turn overs rarely resulted in concussions (granted back then unless you blacked out no one cared) or injuries.  YMMV.

There are lot of people that have long term effects from high school sports. Most of them are minor (i.e. shoulder gives your problems or you have a bum knee). With brain injuries we have no real way to monitor them other than in the extreme cases where the person suffers symptoms 6+ months after the incident. No one can tell you if that concussion costs you 5 iq points or is the reason why you get depressed easily.

This isn't about fear. It is about evaluating the risks and using good judgement. 20 years ago, you went to the sidelines for a couple plays and then went back in after your concussion. Now a day they make you sit a couple of days because research has shown that in general 1 concussions isn't bad. It is the multiple concussions before the 1st one has healed that does you in. Of course there are a lot of minor concussions (see Sydney Crosby) that don't get handled properly and the athlete has major problems after the next concussion.

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

Yeah I will be proud.  Its his choice when he gets in HS.  We have the best football team in the state and being a winner, man what I would give.  I was stupid and didn't play.  It wasn't because I was afraid, I was too busy being lazy.

I think that is the extreme.  What % of HS players have long term effects from football.  I bet it is 1 out of every 1000, if that.  It really is your choice how you raise your kids.  I don't want mine to be afraid because of risk.  I think HS people driving a car is more of risk to their long term health than football.  They are idiots.

But I hope technology improves to protect players.  I think hits that are intended to hurt the other player shouldn't be tolorated.  If you go after someones head the punishment should be severe.  I think season long suspensions would be proper.  Coaches and players should know when coming in to break up the play should be hits to the chest.  I don't like dirty play.

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

Man, your kids are going to have a blast going growing up with the captain of the fun police!

LoL, I'm sure you know a lot about strict parenting! Has your mom ungrounded you for joining the forum yet?

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

LoL, I'm sure you know a lot about strict parenting! Has your mom ungrounded you for joining the forum yet?

Pfft silly woman locked me in a room with my iPhone!

How about you? Still grounded for touching fungus?

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

Pfft silly woman locked me in a room with my iPhone!

How about you? Still grounded for touching fungus?

No, I'm too busy setting up the fireworks display at your course for when you tee off.

[Leftygolfer]

Originally Posted by x129

So you glorify the hits but you never took part.  My experience was that a huge number of the big hits were always unnecessary and added nothing to the game.  They were almost late and/or illegal. And in HS when you had a mismatch between a 150lb guy and a 225lb one.   The hard ones that caused turn overs rarely resulted in concussions (granted back then unless you blacked out no one cared) or injuries.  YMMV.

There are lot of people that have long term effects from high school sports. Most of them are minor (i.e. shoulder gives your problems or you have a bum knee). With brain injuries we have no real way to monitor them other than in the extreme cases where the person suffers symptoms 6+ months after the incident. No one can tell you if that concussion costs you 5 iq points or is the reason why you get depressed easily.

This isn't about fear. It is about evaluating the risks and using good judgement. 20 years ago, you went to the sidelines for a couple plays and then went back in after your concussion. Now a day they make you sit a couple of days because research has shown that in general 1 concussions isn't bad. It is the multiple concussions before the 1st one has healed that does you in. Of course there are a lot of minor concussions (see Sydney Crosby) that don't get handled properly and the athlete has major problems after the next concussion.

Glorify big hits?  No.  But if he is a line backer then I do want him to make the big tackles and break up plays.  He can only play the right way.  I never want to see  him go after someone's head or play dirty.  He will be done if I observed that.  I believe the risk of him doing much worse things if he doesn't play sports is high.  What do HS kids do during the summer.  Get into trouble.  If he plays football, baseball, golf he will have less time to do those things.  HS football is tough.  2 a days eat up your whole summer.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

Glorify big hits?  No.  But if he is a line backer then I do want him to make the big tackles and break up plays.  He can only play the right way.  I never want to see  him go after someone's head or play dirty.  He will be done if I observed that.  I believe the risk of him doing much worse things if he doesn't play sports is high.  What do HS kids do during the summer.  Get into trouble.  If he plays football, baseball, golf he will have less time to do those things.  HS football is tough.  2 a days eat up your whole summer.

Totally agree with that.  But could you not also concede that basketball (or cross country, or water polo, or soccer), baseball, golf would be much less risky health-wise than football, baseball, golf?

[Golfingdad]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13463272/how-former-san-francisco-49ers-chris-borland-retirement-change-nfl-forever Saw this story this morning and it reminded me of this old thread. (Special thanks to Erik for helping me actually find it though)