Can Overswinging Cause Flipping?

[mvmac]

Probably for some. For me, when I overswing, I tend to yank the handle and stay too far ahead of the club head causing a slice.

No disrespect but slicers tend to have the opposite alignment, handle behind the clubhead at impact. If you are swinging in-out you would need to have to have the face aimed right A LOT for it to slice. Pushes and push fades, sure, but slices are very rare.

My point is that over swinging does not necessarily cause a flip, actually probably one of the least reasons for a flip. Case in point would be Jamie Sadlowski, Bubba, countless others who do what you describe

Correct, it's about how the overswing occurs. Those guys you mentioned keep pivoting throughout the backswing, when their pivot stops their arms stop. From my experience you typically don't see that with slicers who swing past parallel. Their pivot stalls and they keep loading the arms independently, wrist angles "collapse" and they get very narrow.

[bamajeff]

No disrespect but slicers tend to have the opposite alignment, handle behind the clubhead at impact. If you are swinging in-out you would need to have to have the face aimed right A LOT for it to slice. Pushes and push fades, sure, but slices are very rare.

Well, push fades that fade 30 yards.  I don't have a current video(will try to get one soon), but there are a lot of similarities between my swing and the one below(I am a lefty as well):

[mvmac]

Well, push fades that fade 30 yards.  I don't have a current video(will try to get one soon), but there are a lot of similarities between my swing and the one below(I am a lefty as well):

Cool, feel free to post it in this forum

http://thesandtrap.com/f/4180/member-swings

[mvmac]

Absolutely. When I think of overswinging I picture a "narrow" look at the top of the backswing. The player has to start releasing the wrist angles at a fast rate to get the club head on some acceptable route to hit the ball. A common reason for overswinging is not pivoting enough. The arms and shaft keep loading while the body stalls resulting in a "narrow" look at the top of the backswing.

From my experience you typically don't see that with slicers who swing past parallel. Their pivot stalls and they keep loading the arms independently, wrist angles "collapse" and they get very narrow.

Good example of what I was talking about

[MS256]

Good example of what I was talking about

Looks like my definition of "overswinging" is wrong (or at least different) than what it means to you (and others?).

When I think of over-swinging I think of so much exertion in the forward swing that control is lost. A side effect of that could be a longer backswing but not necessarily. When I over-swing (by my definition) I am basically pushing off of the pitchers mound much too hard and much too fast.

Going by the length and width of backswing definition I never over-swing (or at least haven't in years).

So my comments on over-swinging in this thread can be disregarded (and probably were anyway).

[Phil McGleno]

That does not make sense.[quote name="MS256" url="/t/76105/can-overswinging-cause-flipping#post_1027761"] I suppose it's because it takes very little energy to start unhinging lag early when my swing isn't as fast. With a faster swing the centrifugal force holds the lag in place longer. [/quote]

[MS256]

That does not make sense.

Does to me.

The faster I am driving the butt end of the club toward the hitting zone the harder it is to "flip" the club and release the lag early.

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

That does not make sense.

Does to me.

The faster I am driving the butt end of the club toward the hitting zone the harder it is to "flip" the club and release the lag early.

Opposite for me.  The harder (notice I did not say faster) I swing, the more I flip.  Instead of pulling on the butt, I must push "out?" with the hands more.

[MS256]

Opposite for me.  The harder (notice I did not say faster) I swing, the more I flip.  Instead of pulling on the butt, I must push "out?" with the hands more.

Pretty much comes naturally for me to swing with the butt end leading from swinging a bat so many times for so many years. A "flip" in baseball equals an automatic 0 for 4.

[HawkNballs]

In my experience... flipping comes from swinging too much in to out.  You either push it or save it with your hands and flip it into a hook.

If you're athletic and you feel the club face is open on the downswing... your body will adjust in half a second and flip.

I can only speak for myself, as this was (and sometimes still creeps in) my swing fault for a few years.

[MS256]

In my experience... flipping comes from swinging too much in to out.  You either push it or save it with your hands and flip it into a hook.

If you're athletic and you feel the club face is open on the downswing... your body will adjust in half a second and flip.

I can only speak for myself, as this was (and sometimes still creeps in) my swing fault for a few years.

I agree with that.

With just the wrong speed from just the wrong club it's push or hook city and it would be hard to be a good enough flipper to time it right.

[iacas]

Does to me.

The faster I am driving the butt end of the club toward the hitting zone the harder it is to "flip" the club and release the lag early.

FWIW I agree with @Phil McGleno on that one.

The faster a club is swung the more it wants to line up, releasing the lag and then speeding past the hands ("flipping"). Centrifugal force does not keep the club lagging, it pulls the club out.

"Lag happens" because things are properly sequenced, and the vast majority of people can't actually "increase lag" by "driving the butt end of the club toward the hitting zone harder." That's a feel that may work for you, but the physics of it are somewhat suspect.

P.S. the better the player, the more UPWARD they're directing their force on the handle at impact. Also not exactly something you can "teach" per se, but more so than some other things I've seen lately… :-P

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS256

Does to me.

The faster I am driving the butt end of the club toward the hitting zone the harder it is to "flip" the club and release the lag early.

FWIW I agree with @Phil McGleno on that one.

The faster a club is swung the more it wants to line up, releasing the lag and then speeding past the hands ("flipping"). Centrifugal force does not keep the club lagging, it pulls the club out.

"Lag happens" because things are properly sequenced, and the vast majority of people can't actually "increase lag" by "driving the butt end of the club toward the hitting zone harder." That's a feel that may work for you, but the physics of it are somewhat suspect.

P.S. the better the player, the more UPWARD they're directing their force on the handle at impact. Also not exactly something you can "teach" per se, but more so than some other things I've seen lately… :-P

Actually makes me feel a little better to read this.  It definitely does not seem to help me increase lag.

[MS256]

FWIW I agree with @Phil McGleno on that one.

The faster a club is swung the more it wants to line up, releasing the lag and then speeding past the hands ("flipping"). Centrifugal force does not keep the club lagging, it pulls the club out.

"Lag happens" because things are properly sequenced, and the vast majority of people can't actually "increase lag" by "driving the butt end of the club toward the hitting zone harder." That's a feel that may work for you, but the physics of it are somewhat suspect.

P.S. the better the player, the more UPWARD they're directing their force on the handle at impact. Also not exactly something you can "teach" per se, but more so than some other things I've seen lately… :-P

That doesn't surprise me.

[iacas]

That doesn't surprise me.

Okay…?

Do you have a response to the post other than that I was agreeing with one person and disagreeing with another?

[MS256]

Okay…?

Do you have a response to the post other than that I was agreeing with one person and disagreeing with another?

Assuming you really want to try to understand here's the best I can do.

There is a baseball drill we called against the fence. You stand facing the fence close enough so the bat is touching both the fence and your stomach. Then without moving back away from the fence you make a full swing without hitting the fence.

The faster you swing the less likely you are to hit the fence because the speed is keeping the bat trailing until the hands get past center. With a slower swing not as much lag is created and what little there is can start unwinding early.

[hallryu]

I have/ had an over swinging issue that I'm currently working on by shortening my backswing. I was creating a negative spine angle at the top of my backswing and was therefore done before the downswing had even started. My release was so early as a result.

[iacas]

There is a baseball drill we called against the fence. You stand facing the fence close enough so the bat is touching both the fence and your stomach. Then without moving back away from the fence you make a full swing without hitting the fence.

The faster you swing the less likely you are to hit the fence because the speed is keeping the bat trailing until the hands get past center. With a slower swing not as much lag is created and what little there is can start unwinding early.

Okay. That's not the same as a golf swing.

On my phone so I can't elaborate too much but one is more pivot based (and the CG is closer to the hands in a bat than a golf club) than hand-speed based.

And I imagine that if you swung 1 MPH it's VERY easy to keep the bat from hitting the fence and you can "create" all the lag you want. Swinging faster would throw the bat out just as it throws out a golf club. I'm not sure why you believe differently. The physics are what they are.

---

To the actual topic…

Overswinging can cause it. More likely to cause it than under swinging, as when a golfer "overswings" they're more likely to "throw out" the angles they've over-done on the backswing.

For example, a golfer over-bends the right elbow. They're then more likely to want to throw that angle out at a faster rate (they must, after all), but in doing so over-do it a little, resulting in too little angle remaining at impact.