Advice on a couple of rules please

**walfice** · October 18, 2008

If your ball comes to rest in a small puddle in a bunker do you drop it or place it behind the puddle? Also, if a ball is plugged in the fairway/rough (the ground is soft right now after plenty of rainfall) can you place the ball or not?

**NM Golf** · October 18, 2008

If your ball comes to rest in a small puddle in a bunker do you drop it or place it behind the puddle? Also, if a ball is plugged in the fairway/rough (the ground is soft right now after plenty of rainfall) can you place the ball or not?

You get relief from the puddle but have to drop in the bunker. If your ball plugs then you get relief, you get to lift, clean, and drop your ball not place it. Its rare while taking relief that you get to place your ball.

**GolferDot** · October 18, 2008

Is the relief for an embedded ball through the green or grass cut to fairway length and shorter ?

**Fourputt** · October 18, 2008

If your ball comes to rest in a small puddle in a bunker do you drop it or place it behind the puddle? Also, if a ball is plugged in the fairway/rough (the ground is soft right now after plenty of rainfall) can you place the ball or not?

You don't place it behind the puddle, you DROP the ball within the bunker. You locate the nearest point of relief from the casual water that is not closer to the hole, then you drop within one clublength of that point, but the ball must be dropped in the bunker, and still not closer to the hole than the nearest point of relief. If there is no such point that offers complete relief from the casual water, then you determine that point which offers the most relief and drop there. If there is no place to drop in the bunker that is not closer to the hole, then you can drop outside, but you must take a penalty stroke for that privilege.

Is the relief for an embedded ball through the green or grass cut to fairway length and shorter ?

The Rules allow only relief in the closely mowed areas. The committee can invoke the specimen local rule that allows relief through the green, but it should only be done in extreme wet conditions. The PGA Tour invokes this local rule for all of their tournaments, but that's just because they don't want their prima donna golfers to look bad.

Webby · October 22, 2008

Oh my, a whole new language for this rookie. Where do I find a dictionary of golf terms? Just starting to play, (don't even have my own clubs yet). Where is a good place to start learning the language?

Webby

**Fourputt** · October 22, 2008

Oh my, a whole new language for this rookie. Where do I find a dictionary of golf terms? Just starting to play, (don't even have my own clubs yet). Where is a good place to start learning the language?

You can start with the definitions section in The Rules of Golf. Go to

USGA.org

Wayne · October 22, 2008

I got another question on rules.Hole #9 at the course I play at has a dogleg to the right with out of bounds down the right side.With a very good drive you can cut the corner and almost reach the green.Is it legal to cut across out of bound as long as it dont land in it?

**case31** · October 22, 2008

I got another question on rules.Hole #9 at the course I play at has a dogleg to the right with out of bounds down the right side.With a very good drive you can cut the corner and almost reach the green.Is it legal to cut across out of bound as long as it dont land in it?

Perfectly legal. Same as if you slice it right towards the out of bounds and the ball hits a tree that's 10 yards out of bounds and comes back in. Also the same for water hazards, if you hit towards a lake and the ball skips 7 times and bounces out on dry land, no penalty.

Penalty strokes are based on where the ball comes to rest.

Wayne · October 22, 2008

Thats what I thought but my brother said he thought it was illegal but wasn't for sure.

**Borf** · October 22, 2008

Play it as it lies.

**tjy355** · October 22, 2008

I got another question on rules.Hole #9 at the course I play at has a dogleg to the right with out of bounds down the right side.With a very good drive you can cut the corner and almost reach the green.Is it legal to cut across out of bound as long as it dont land in it?

Perfectly legal. Same as if you slice it right towards the out of bounds and the ball hits a tree that's 10 yards out of bounds and comes back in. Also the same for water hazards, if you hit towards a lake and the ball skips 7 times and bounces out on dry land, no penalty.

Refer to the seventeenth at The Old Course. Tee shot is over the warehouse on the inside of the dogleg.

**SubPar** · October 22, 2008

The Rules allow only relief in the closely mowed areas. The committee can invoke the specimen local rule that allows relief through the green, but it should only be done in extreme wet conditions. The PGA Tour invokes this local rule for all of their tournaments, but that's just because they don't want their prima donna golfers to look bad.

you always get relief when a ball is embedded in it's own pitch mark "through the green", no matter the conditions.

(see 25-2) . Even in the rough is through-the-green... "Through the green" is the whole area of the course except: a. The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played; and b. All hazards on the course. Define "embedded": 25-2/0.5 When Ball Embedded in Ground

For a ball to be considered embedded, it must be in its own pitch-mark with part of the ball below the level of the ground. However, the ball does not necessarily have to touch the soil to be considered embedded, e.g., grass or loose impediments may intervene between the ball and the soil. Sounds like you are thinking of "lift, clean and place", sometimes called "winter rules". This can be allowed (in closely mown areas on the hole you are playing) in wet conditions. You can allow LC&P; in any match or tournament where the wet conditions tend to cause the ball to gather mud. It has nothing to do with making golfers look good. SubPar P.S. Rule 25-1 Entire Bunker filled with Casual Water Q. What are a player`s options if an entire bunker is filled with casual water? A. Under Rule 25-1b(ii), without penalty, the player may drop the ball in the bunker at a point that provides maximum available relief (i.e., in 1 inch of water rather than 5 inches). Or, under penalty of one stroke, the player may drop the ball outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and where the ball is dropped, with no limit on how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped. (See Decision 25-1b/8)

**Fourputt** · October 22, 2008

you always get relief when a ball is embedded in it's own pitch mark "through the green", no matter the conditions.

No I'm thinking of Rule 25-2. Read on....

Rule 25-2 is:

25-2. Embedded Ball A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green. "Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

And this is from Appendix 1: Specimen Local Rules:

4. Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course a. Relief for Embedded Ball Rule 25-2 provides relief, without penalty, for a ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in any closely mown area through the green. On the putting green, a ball may be lifted and damage caused by the impact of a ball may be repaired (Rules 16-1b and c). When permission to take relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the green would be warranted, the following Local Rule is recommended: "Through the green, a ball that is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green. Exceptions: 1. A player may not take relief under this Local Rule if the ball is embedded in sand in an area that is not closely mown. 2. A player may not take relief under this Local Rule if it is clearly unreasonable for him to make a stroke because of interference by anything other than the condition covered by this Local Rule.

**SubPar** · October 22, 2008

No I'm thinking of Rule 25-2.

So a local rule suspends the part about closely mown areas?

The rules of golf will make blood shoot out of your eyes. It is like trying to read the IRS Tax Code. Like 18-2 that says you are penalized if your ball moves after you have "addressed the ball". Addressing the ball is defined by grounding your club AND taking your stance ( here ). But there is a decision that says if you have grounded your club, but not yet taken your stance, you are still penalized if the ball moves, which means you have not "addressed the ball". SubPar

**Fourputt** · October 23, 2008

So a local rule suspends the part about closely mown areas?

It does only if instituted by the competition committee, and it should only be done under very sloppy conditions. The thinking behind the rule is that if you hit a bad shot that puts you in a place that isn't closely mowed, then sometimes you get a bad lie.

The rules of golf will make blood shoot out of your eyes. It is like trying to read the IRS Tax Code.

Not necessarily. If you are deemed to have been the cause of the ball moving then yes, you are penalized. But, if you are playing in a strong wind, and you take your stance for a putt without grounding the club or otherwise touching the ball or doing anything to cause it to move, then the movement can be clearly blamed on the wind. You play the ball as it lies without penalty.

It's a cause and effect situation. If the effect is the ball moving, then the cause must be determined. If no other cause is apparent, then the player is deemed to have caused the movement. If something else is clearly to blame, then you proceed under the rule that applies to that cause. If the player has addressed the ball, then he is deemed to have been the cause almost 100% of the time. Here is the Decision you were referring to:

18-2b/1 Ball Moves After Stance Taken But Before Address Q. Outside a hazard, the player took his stance but did not ground his club. The ball moved. What is the ruling? A. As the player had not addressed the ball, he did not incur a penalty under Rule 18-2b (see Definition of “Addressing the Ball”). If, however, the player caused the ball to move, he was subject to penalty and the ball should have been replaced — Rule 18-2a.

**SubPar** · December 19, 2008

No I'm thinking of Rule 25-2. Read on....

I based my original opinion on what I have seen the pros do on TV. I confirmed my original position yesterday with a PGA rules official. The PGA plays it like this: Any ball resting in it's own pitch mark through the green can be removed, cleaned and dropped without penalty. Even in the rough.

If you ground your putter behind the ball and the ball moves you are deemed to have casued it to move. There is no debate about the cause.

Your example is the opposite. Of course, if you have not grounded your putter and the ball moves you are not penalized and you play it as it lies. SubPar

**Fourputt** · December 19, 2008

With the putter this is probably true, although there may be times when the player could be deemed as the cause even if he doesn't ground the putter... i.e. if no other agency is present to blame it on, then the player has to be deemed as the cause of the movement. I can't even think of a reasonable example right offhand, so I would think that such a case would be exceedingly rare.

This is more likely to occur through the green when taking your stance in the rough... you can touch the grass without grounding the club and still be deemed as the cause of the ball moving. I've even seen the ball move when a player took a practice swing too close to where the ball lay in matted long grass.

**tjy355** · December 19, 2008

The Rules allow only relief in the closely mowed areas. The committee can invoke the specimen local rule that allows relief through the green, but it should only be done in extreme wet conditions. The PGA Tour invokes this local rule for all of their tournaments, but that's just because they don't want their

You misspelled "big hairy pussies."

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Advice on a couple of rules please

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