Straightening the Right Leg, Turning the Hip

***iacas*** · June 25, 2009

I had a long thing written, but frankly, I doubt anyone cares, so I'll cut to the chase.

As some will remember, I'm working with a guy who is certified as a Stack and Tilt instructor but I'm maintaining a fairly traditional Hogan-ish type swing.

In my first three lessons I worked on my takeaway and my hip slide through to impact, but in my fourth lesson this past Tuesday we worked on one thing that instantly clicked. I didn't even have to do anything but see it on video (though videos of Sergio and Hogan for comparison certainly helped drive the point home).

Basically, my hips were barely turning on the backswing. By barely, I mean just that: about 5-10°! If you asked me how much they were turning I'd have probably guessed 30°, but even 10° might be exaggerating things.

So we saw that on the video right away, and after I got over feeling like a huge moron (four or five seconds - see my note at the end), we hit the range again. Instant improvement. Holy cow. Not only were the two things I was working on - getting my hands more to the inside on the takeaway and sliding, not spinning, the hips on the downswing - easier, but I picked up another few percentage points of distance and began making better contact immediately.

I have to take care not to let my swing get too long now - I was already getting 90° shoulder turn with almost no hip turn before - but wow, what an instant difference. I just kind of think of Vijay Singh and it all kind of clicks into place. I feel very loose in my swing, but in a good way (not "loose" as in "sloppy" or "uncontrolled"). My hips are rotating about 30 or 40 degrees now.

Note: The funny thing is I can't think of any point in time when I ever said "don't rotate your hips." It's just something that's crept into my swing. I still believe - as my instructor does - that a lot of amateurs tend to rotate the hips too much, but I clearly wasn't one of them.

And to the part about feeling like a huge moron, man, do golf lessons ever give you that feeling from time to time. How did I never see the lack of hip turn away from the ball before? Wow.

P.S. I guess I'm posting this just to really try to drill it home for myself. I can't imagine anyone else will care enough about this post to respond. But that's not to say you shouldn't - just that I can't imagine right now why you would.

**wedge player** · June 25, 2009

thats actually one of the things im workin on right now.i video'd my swing and realized i had a slide not a turn its something im trying to work on.

**ninetwothree** · June 25, 2009

Good move to S&T.; Keep us posted on how you're finding it!

I worked on what the S&T; guys call the elk drill, which is raising the right hip and extending the right knee at address to get the feeling of the proper hip slant. The feeling of high will match the pictures of rotated.

Crush the can and hold the wedge!

***iacas*** · June 25, 2009

Good move to S&T.; Keep us posted on how you're finding it!

I'm not moving to S&T.; It just happens that the best instructor in the area (that I could find) is certified in S&T.; He's not a "one swing for everyone" type of person, though.

More here . No can crushing going on here.

**SpringBokVol** · June 25, 2009

I am working on a very similar swing. I try to model it after Immelman.

My problem is that I let my swing get too long...especially with driver. I am trying to take all my irons to 3/4 and have the driver be at parallel.

My key is to take the club back slowly keeping the clubhead inside the ball and outside of my hands and not cocking my wrists until I get to the top.

**ninetwothree** · June 25, 2009

I'm not moving to S&T.; It just happens that the best instructor in the area (that I could find) is certified in S&T.; He's not a "one swing for everyone" type of person, though.

I see and thanks for the other post. I didn't know S&T; had certified teachers? There are so many different ways to swing it as long as you know what works. If a swing can be described like a puzzle, with certain pieces fitting in certain places, and yours is a picture of a ferrari, don't add a piece from a porsche. Good to hear you are making positive changes and not ranting like another disappointed student. If you're working on moves like hogan, you're crushing that can into the ground. nice model to choose from too!

***iacas*** · June 25, 2009

I see and thanks for the other post. I didn't know S&T; had certified teachers?

The word may not be "certified" but, as the other thread says, he's setting up the first "certified" S&T; academy, has trained under the two guys, etc. Again, "certified" might not be the right word, but it's something like that.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, whatever it is.

**iWALK18** · June 25, 2009

are you saying that you straighten your right leg in the backswing or the downswing? I don't understand that part of your post.

**Shindig** · June 26, 2009

are you saying that you straighten your right leg in the backswing or the downswing? I don't understand that part of your post.

I have sometimes caught myself straightening my right leg in the backswing, and pushing off it for the downswing, but I don't think I ever did that deliberately...

***iacas*** · June 26, 2009

are you saying that you straighten your right leg in the backswing or the downswing? I don't understand that part of your post.

Yes, the backswing. Watch the Hogan video. Or look at the picture of him at the top of his swing.

**ninetwothree** · June 26, 2009

That's awesome about a certified facility. There's alot of good information in the S&T; guys.

When you address the ball and you look at a picture from down the line, the hips are slanted down... you can see the belt of a player on and angle where the buckle points to the ground. If you turn your hips level to the belt, your right hip has to get higher to trace UP the cirlce, or the belt...... and if you turn your hips level to the ground, you're coming out of posture. The right hip higher is great feel and visual for the proper hip rotation. They should turn level to their address position and Not the ground.

RC · June 26, 2009

This is extremely interesting. I don't think you are saying your right leg goes completely straight in the backswing, but you may be. The right leg does straighten as the right hip rises around the spine angle, but Hogan always had flex in his right leg as far as I know -- I don't think it ever went completely straight. I completely agree the leg becomes straighter than it was at address, but I'm don't fully understanding what you mean by straightening. Do you mean completely straight such as how it would be when standing as tall as possible?

Hogan was already past his prime at Shady Oaks where I saw him, but he still had a beautiful swing and his right leg stayed ready to fire, after straightening some on the backswing. My first instructor was a Hogan disciple and lived and breathed what he learned from Hogan, and he was always on my case for straightening the right leg too much. But I probably don't understand what you are saying very well.

**shortstop20** · June 26, 2009

I always thought you were supposed to restrict the hip turn if you can still make a full shoulder turn(90*)?

If you allow the hips to turn more(say 30* total), therefore increasing the shoulder turn(let's say 120* total), would the ball go further assuming all else is equal?

I guess I've never turned my hips more than I needed to in order to get a 90* shoulder turn, which is not much as I'm more flexible than the average person.

***iacas*** · June 26, 2009

I don't think you are saying your right leg goes completely straight in the backswing, but you may be.

I'm not, and it's part of the reason I may have missed this "lack of hip turn" thing in the first lesson he and I had. He mentioned turning the right hip out of the way by straightening the right leg. I took that to mean "make it straight" - and associated it with S&T; - and thus resisted listening.

But he didn't mean "straighten it" as in a straight line - he just meant... "make it less bent," so to speak. I think you know what I mean - straighten it, but not all the way straight. I took it the first time around to mean "all the way straight."

Do you mean completely straight such as how it would be when standing as tall as possible?

No, which is why I think his terminology might have been lacking. I too took it to mean "straight," almost as if he wanted my knee to lock in a little. He just means "less bend," which I'm fine with... but I really can't blame him for his choice of terminology because what else would say besides "straighten your right leg"? "Decrease the bend"? I guess some of those others could work... but I told him of my confusion and he understood what I meant, so maybe that'll help him with future students.

I always thought you were supposed to restrict the hip turn if you can still make a full shoulder turn(90*)?

Sure, but not to 5° of hip turn.

If you allow the hips to turn more(say 30* total), therefore increasing the shoulder turn(let's say 120* total), would the ball go further assuming all else is equal?

Ah, but that's where you're getting things goofed up. Ideally you still get about 90 or 100° (tops) shoulder turn WITH 30-45° hip turn.

I was getting 90 with 5. I'm not going to 120 now - though I probably have to watch out that I don't accidentally go to 120. What feels like a 3/4 swing is really quite long now (around 90), so that's my guideline.

**Leftygolfer** · June 26, 2009

Interesting Idea.

I know one thing I am going to work on next is turning more away from the ball. My instructor had some other more pressing issues and didn't want to overwelm me but did mention how I dont get my back facing the target. I said I wasn't flexible but he said that probably wasnt it. He said it was a fear of not being able to get to square. I am working on other things right now and don't want to confuse myself and to work on what I need to address.

Do you expect more power or is this going to help with consistancy? It seems like there would be less tension at the top so you could have a great transition and pretty much just drop the club and release it through.

I am with others and always thought of the X factor as the greater the better. I can't remember who called it that but I have no doubt you know what I am referring too.

***iacas*** · June 26, 2009

Do you expect more power or is this going to help with consistancy?

I don't expect more power, no. That's because when I hit the ball properly (which was tougher without the hip rotation) before it was already probably maxing out my power - 185-yard 6-irons or so. Of course, by "maxing out" I mean about a normal, 80% swing for good contact. I don't think I've ever swung 100%.

Here's what I expect... because I've already experienced it. Not turning my right hip back provided less room for my hands to get inside, which often led to me flipping the club back behind me a bit more than ideal. At the top, I'd be turned 90° with almost no hip turn, so when my hips would turn my right hip would kick out towards the ball, which kicked my arms out and which led to my slight over-the-top move. There was nowhere for my hands to drop to - my hip was already in the way. The extra room back and inside that rotating my right hip "out of the way" gives me lets me not only take my hands back on a better line (which keeps the clubhead outside my hands), but gives me the room to drop it back there coming down. We also did some work with an impact bag. We put a shaft in the ground in front of it, then I had to hit the inside back quadrant and spin the bag to the left of the shaft. That had more to do with really trying to work on my hip slide (i.e. to increase it) than anything, I think - but that's easier to do when my hip rotates back, too. It doesn't require the timing I needed before - to hold my hips from rotating because they were already 30 degrees ahead of the rest of my body.

I am with others and always thought of the X factor as the greater the better. I can't remember who called it that but I have no doubt you know what I am referring too.

I think the "X Factor" is still true, but most people overdo it. I know I wasn't thinking of the X Factor when I was (subconsciously?) restricting my hip turn. I was just trying to stay "steadier." Had nothing to do with power or anything (for me).

**Leftygolfer** · June 26, 2009

It all makes sense. You are looking for more consistancy and timing. It will make all things work together and you will not come over the top at all. I am sure you will still pull and push at times but hopefully less.

Not thread related but great job on the scores this year. That is a big jump in your HCI and you should be proud. I know the better you get the harder and harder it is to improve. Congrats.

RC · June 26, 2009

Yes, this all makes sense now. Your initial reaction to the idea of Straightening sounded like mine.... no. no. But now that you have explained that it becomes "more straight" not "straight-straight" I understand (and agree). This allows the hip to rise and turn, and the hips do turn on the back swing.

I think the difficult area here is the words and pictures are so hard to use to convey the actual feeling in the body. You still feel a lot of coil and build-up of energy from the difference in the rotation of shoulders and hips, you need the feeling of some restriction, but not 5 or 10 degrees of hips. My problems over the years were always the opposite, turning the hips too much and creating looseness so that the downswing requires too much timing. I would have good days and bad because if the timing was good, I would be fine, but otherwise erratic.

So, I usually advocate restricting the hips and learning what a coil against a firm right side feels like because that limits the stopping place for the shoulder turn. Otherwise the shoulders would go around way behind the ball, the club would cross the line a lot, and wildness followed.

I do think for the average golfer, not the low handicapper, most over rotate the hips and under rotate the shoulders, but you obviously are not doing this. Sounds like you are getting into the natural position where you can sequence the downswing in a repeatable way, and that is more than half the battle.

Next we could talk about the left leg... and does it straighten right at impact. I decidedly think the left leg should not go straight right at impact, but may straighten to close to straight just after impact. Again, words are problems, and people read funny things into words -- just as you have remarked, we sometimes hear things and misintrepreted them. I've had some fine teachers who would say something, and it might take a few days to realize they meant something different than what I thought I heard. They were not wrong, I just thought they meant something else.

Tell a beginning that the club must swing to the inside, and, "wowsie", there is no telling what they will wind up doing on their own over the next week.

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Straightening the Right Leg, Turning the Hip

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