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Runner's inside please

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 

I have recently picked up running and have been following a couch to 5k program for the past 8 weeks.  Well, the last week or two my knees have been hurting pretty bad.  They hurt when I go up stairs and when I'm just sitting around in a chair.  I don't know if it's just my body getting used to it, a lack of water intake, or something worse like runner's knee.  I ran again yesterday and they hurt again, so I am now planning on taking a week off and see if that helps.

 

 

Any of you runners got any ideas?  Is this just part of beginner running pains??  If this continues, I will just give it up.  I can't wake up every morning with my legs hurting like this.

post #2 of 22

Were you fit for running shoes?  Runners tend to either pronate or supinate their ankles when they run, some are neutral.  Pronators tend to be larger people and roll their ankles inward when running (I pronate), while supinators ankles roll outward.  Additionally you should be aware of your arch requirements.  Pronators tend to be flat footed or have shallow arches where as supinators tend to have high arches though as with everything else there are exceptions to the rules. 

 

Pronators should run in stability or motion control running shoes - these shoes are usually a bit heavier - depends on amount of stablility built in.  Supinators should use neutral shoes or cushion running shoes.

 

Each shoe is designed for different types of arches as well.  You can easily determine your arch type by wetting the bottom of your feet and stepping on a piece of paper.  A flat footed person will see their entire footprint, medium arch will show the forefoot with a thinning through the arch area to the full heel.  High arch will show almost a space between the forefoot and heel. 

 

Pronation or supination can be determined at any dedicated running shoe store (avoid major chains like Modells, Dicks and Sports Authority).  They may ask you to run on a treadmill to observe your running or use a running analyzer that you step onto.  Unless you have had injuries to your knees you shouldn't feel any real pain in your hips or knees when running, but it's normal to feel muscle soreness if you're new to running.  Even shin splints can be caused by running in the wrong type of shoes.  I hope this helps. 

post #3 of 22
Thread Starter 

Very good information!  Yeah, I went to a Fleet Feet store here and had to run on a treadmill.  I'm thinking they told me that I was neutral (it has been a little while).  With that being said, I am flat footed.  It is about time for me to go back for a new set of shoes but I am hesitant to buy a new pair if this soreness doesn't go away. I will give myself the week off, add in more water (I have been really bad about not drinking water lately and I know it's important for the joints), and then see if they are better.  The weird thing is that I have had the same shoes and running style the entire 8 or so weeks but it has just started the past 2 weeks.  Maybe they are just over trained and need more rest than I am giving them.

 

I started reading about common injuries and when I came up on the runner's knee description, I kind of got worried that it was an anatomical issue and that it just wasn't meant for me to be a runner.  I hope that's not the case, as I love running but if it's going to make my knees so sore that it bothers my golf game, then I will have to choose another form of exercise!

post #4 of 22

Might want to get re-fit, since most people that are flat footed also pronate.  The shoe they suggested might not offer enough support for you depending on how light weight it is and how many miles you're running.   Something else to consider is that most running shoes are only good for about 250 miles and it's usually recommended that you alternate pairs if you run every day to give the foam in the shoe time to recover.  

 

I'm not a doctor but I'd think runners knee would have shown up sooner unless you've drastically increased your mileage or pace. 

post #5 of 22

I would make one suggestion..

There is a shoe on the market by Vibram called the 5 finger... I understand there is allot of hype out there so I can only speak from my personal experience.

I have been doing 6 miles a day for several months I started running again in earnest last Oct... Well I have had a couple ACL and MCL injuries over the years...

That being said when I started back seemed like I always had some pain one way or another nothing terrible just a always knew it was there.. like you knees etc from time to time... some days good some days bad... At any rate fast fwd till I read this book called Born To Run.. it goes on to talk about running barefoot and the reason behind it.. well I wasn't going to do that but these shoes did enable me to run naturally again...

It was odd as I felt how I had to learn to run all over again.. so I put them on and went to it.. one minor note is I did not read the part about introducing them slowly into your routine...

Next few days I could barely walk.. lol... due to muscle fatigue... but that got better in the next few days as I built up the proper running muscles...

So now I am for the most part 100% pain free from any running activities ... I get muscle sore but never knee or joint pain period..

I don't know if this will work for everyone all I can say for 100% sure is it worked for me...

The shoes cost about $100 or so and it was WELL WORTH every penny to me...just thought I would share as I have been in the same spot you are... no matte what keep up the good work...

Kevin

post #6 of 22

I will have to give a +1 to Kbiddle.  I was unable to run for years due to my IT band issues.  Switched over to the Vibram 5 fingers and have run multiple 5k with no pain.  It is a process getting used to the barefoot style but well worth it in my opinion.  If you do decide to try them out, avoid doing too much too soon.  I took one week wearing them for half a day or so, then the next week wore them all day in a work environment (which was mostly sitting with the occasional trip to the bathroom or water cooler).  And then wore them all weekend running errands and such.  After that two week spell might feet were adjusted to living in them.  Running was another matter though.  I started the C25K plan using the vibrams only.  I became a midfoot striker and have been pain free since. 

 

Just my 2 cents, and I am not a doctor... nor do I play one on TV :)

post #7 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

Might want to get re-fit, since most people that are flat footed also pronate.  The shoe they suggested might not offer enough support for you depending on how light weight it is and how many miles you're running.   Something else to consider is that most running shoes are only good for about 250 miles and it's usually recommended that you alternate pairs if you run every day to give the foam in the shoe time to recover.  

 

I'm not a doctor but I'd think runners knee would have shown up sooner unless you've drastically increased your mileage or pace. 


Well, it's about time for me to do that anyway. I was trying to wait until I was done with the program and get me some new shoes before my first 5k. You may be right.  I can't remember if I was neutral for sure because it has been a while, but I think that's what they told me.  I don't think I am over the mileage for the shoes, but I am probably close.   I would think you are right about the runner's knee.  We started off slowly adding a minute or two each week....it's the C25k program that is built around a non-runner starting from scratch to get to 5k distance.  So I had run 10, 12, 18 minutes, etc...with no issues.  Thanks for the help...it actually makes me feel a little better about the runner's knee.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by kbiddle View Post

I would make one suggestion..

There is a shoe on the market by Vibram called the 5 finger... I understand there is allot of hype out there so I can only speak from my personal experience.

I have been doing 6 miles a day for several months I started running again in earnest last Oct... Well I have had a couple ACL and MCL injuries over the years...

That being said when I started back seemed like I always had some pain one way or another nothing terrible just a always knew it was there.. like you knees etc from time to time... some days good some days bad... At any rate fast fwd till I read this book called Born To Run.. it goes on to talk about running barefoot and the reason behind it.. well I wasn't going to do that but these shoes did enable me to run naturally again...

It was odd as I felt how I had to learn to run all over again.. so I put them on and went to it.. one minor note is I did not read the part about introducing them slowly into your routine...

Next few days I could barely walk.. lol... due to muscle fatigue... but that got better in the next few days as I built up the proper running muscles...

So now I am for the most part 100% pain free from any running activities ... I get muscle sore but never knee or joint pain period..

I don't know if this will work for everyone all I can say for 100% sure is it worked for me...

The shoes cost about $100 or so and it was WELL WORTH every penny to me...just thought I would share as I have been in the same spot you are... no matte what keep up the good work...

Kevin
 

I have read about these before and had thought about going to them this next time.  I have read about barefoot running being a more natural way of running.  I have also talked with some running buddies that say unless you are used to barefoot running, it's tough and is not for everyone. That is what has steered me away from going to them.  I will try them the next time I go.  I had thought about going with a minimalistic shoe even if I didn't like the 5 finger shoes.  I know new balance has a pair that gets good reviews.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Bogey View Post

I will have to give a +1 to Kbiddle.  I was unable to run for years due to my IT band issues.  Switched over to the Vibram 5 fingers and have run multiple 5k with no pain.  It is a process getting used to the barefoot style but well worth it in my opinion.  If you do decide to try them out, avoid doing too much too soon.  I took one week wearing them for half a day or so, then the next week wore them all day in a work environment (which was mostly sitting with the occasional trip to the bathroom or water cooler).  And then wore them all weekend running errands and such.  After that two week spell might feet were adjusted to living in them.  Running was another matter though.  I started the C25K plan using the vibrams only.  I became a midfoot striker and have been pain free since. 

 

Just my 2 cents, and I am not a doctor... nor do I play one on TV :)

I can't wear them at work but I could figure out a way to work them in.  I will test them out with my next store visit.

 

Thanks again guys.
 

 

post #8 of 22

I'm flat footed too and have been fitted with New Balance 855 at factory store in San Francisco a few years ago. This was when I was running marathons, relays, trails, and my daily runs were along the Embarcadero off Fisherman's Wharf up to Ghiradelli Square. Then I started having knee pain and stopped running because it was very uncomfortable and pain would flare up after 15 minutes of running. It turned out that it was my IT band. It was tight and I didn't know how to loosed it up.

 

Once I started rolling out my IT band with a foam roller. The pain started to subside. Now I can run perfectly without any pain. I make sure to stretch, be well hydrated, and roll out my IT band.

 

As for the Vibrams, my sister is a triathelete and recommended I try them. I bought a pair and tried it. You really have to start off slow with them. I pulled my right calf muscle and was sidelined for two weeks. But after using them, I feel like I have a better running form and my legs feel strong and balanced. I've only used them for the treadmill, since they do look awkward in public. Plus I'm not sure if I'd like to run without any cushion on asphalt or concrete.

post #9 of 22
Run on the balls of your feet, don't let the ankle touch the ground. All these fancy running shoes with stuff in them are no good since they are designed to land on the ankle. Shoes designed to make you run on the balls of your feet is the way to go. You can of course run on the balls in any kind of shoe.
post #10 of 22

This puts a lot of strain on your achilles and calves. As long as you are not used to this style of running (it takes several months, perhaps a whole year, to learn it correctly), you won't be able to run your usual distances or times.

 

In my opinion it's not very suitable for the recreational runner. But it's true that you shouldn't land too hard on your heels, but good shoes can help there too.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph View Post

Run on the balls of your feet, don't let the ankle touch the ground. 


And if you rarely run before, a little pain in your shins/knees/foots is a common trouble.

 

post #11 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastbayEd View Post

I'm flat footed too and have been fitted with New Balance 855 at factory store in San Francisco a few years ago. This was when I was running marathons, relays, trails, and my daily runs were along the Embarcadero off Fisherman's Wharf up to Ghiradelli Square. Then I started having knee pain and stopped running because it was very uncomfortable and pain would flare up after 15 minutes of running. It turned out that it was my IT band. It was tight and I didn't know how to loosed it up.

 

Once I started rolling out my IT band with a foam roller. The pain started to subside. Now I can run perfectly without any pain. I make sure to stretch, be well hydrated, and roll out my IT band.

 

As for the Vibrams, my sister is a triathelete and recommended I try them. I bought a pair and tried it. You really have to start off slow with them. I pulled my right calf muscle and was sidelined for two weeks. But after using them, I feel like I have a better running form and my legs feel strong and balanced. I've only used them for the treadmill, since they do look awkward in public. Plus I'm not sure if I'd like to run without any cushion on asphalt or concrete.


My pain is only after I run.  My knees constantly ache when I am sitting around the house.  When I squat down to pet my dogs and try to get up, I feel it right on top and above my knee cap.  The pain goes away when I am running.  The only problem I have when I run is the muscle beside my shin gets tight, but that is no issue.  That is probably the only fear I have of using the Vibrams.  I don't see how running with them on asphalt or concrete could be very comfortable.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph View Post

Run on the balls of your feet, don't let the ankle touch the ground. All these fancy running shoes with stuff in them are no good since they are designed to land on the ankle. Shoes designed to make you run on the balls of your feet is the way to go. You can of course run on the balls in any kind of shoe.


Yeah, the minimalistic shoes are designed to move the landing spot forward toward the balls of your feet.  I am going to look at those the next time I go to the store.  They make the Vibrams which are basically barefoot style.  But there are other companies like New Balance that make a minimalistic shoe which is pretty much in-between a padded up shoe and barefoot style footwear.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwick View Post

And if you rarely run before, a little pain in your shins/knees/foots is a common trouble.

 


Yeah, as a long time weight lifter, I know that aches and pains come along with doing new things.  But this pain doesn't seem like normal aches and pains.  If that were the case, I would think it would have started when I first began training as well.  This just started about 2 weeks ago.  I could MAYBE see it as being over trained, but then again, I only run 3 days per week....every other day.  And the most I have run so far is 28 minutes....around 3 miles.

 

post #12 of 22

I know minimalist shoes and barefoot running are the rage these days but I don't believe that they are ideal for new runners or non-conditioned runners.  I am 46 years old, 6' 200lbs and started running when I was 260lbs.  I'm also a mild overpronator now, but at 260 I was mid to severe in my ankle pronation.  I initially tried running in trainers, which are light weight and offer minimal support because that's what a friend of mine who was a runner used.  It was a mistake, I ended up with sore knees, shin splints, and sore IT band.  

 

I thought the years of playing football had wrecked havoc with my body, but decided to read some books on running.  Every author suggested that new runners get fitted for shoes.  I went to a local running store and was told I needed stability running shoes.  I made the switch to stability shoes (bought two pair to alternate) and within weeks my pain disappeared.  I run 5 days per week, average 50 miles per week (higher when I'm training for a marathon) and I haven't had any pain since.  I track the mileage on my shoes and replace them after 300 miles (I buy Asics Gel Kayanos which are pretty well built).   I use trainers or light weight running shoes only for races when I know I'll have a few days to recover.  I belong to a few running clubs and only the lighter, neutral pronation and best conditioned runners run in minimalist shoes, the rest, like me, have tried them and went back for shoes with support.   

 

 

post #13 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

I know minimalist shoes and barefoot running are the rage these days but I don't believe that they are ideal for new runners or non-conditioned runners.  I am 46 years old, 6' 200lbs and started running when I was 260lbs.  I'm also a mild overpronator now, but at 260 I was mid to severe in my ankle pronation.  I initially tried running in trainers, which are light weight and offer minimal support because that's what a friend of mine who was a runner used.  It was a mistake, I ended up with sore knees, shin splints, and sore IT band.  

 

I thought the years of playing football had wrecked havoc with my body, but decided to read some books on running.  Every author suggested that new runners get fitted for shoes.  I went to a local running store and was told I needed stability running shoes.  I made the switch to stability shoes (bought two pair to alternate) and within weeks my pain disappeared.  I run 5 days per week, average 50 miles per week (higher when I'm training for a marathon) and I haven't had any pain since.  I track the mileage on my shoes and replace them after 300 miles (I buy Asics Gel Kayanos which are pretty well built).   I use trainers or light weight running shoes only for races when I know I'll have a few days to recover.  I belong to a few running clubs and only the lighter, neutral pronation and best conditioned runners run in minimalist shoes, the rest, like me, have tried them and went back for shoes with support.   

 

 




That is basically my line of thinking as well.  The store I go to will actually let you put the shoes on and run around the parking lot in them.  I am going to try a few different styles AFTER I get them to fit me again.  I am curious to see how a different person fits me compared to how the original person fit me. I asked my wife last night if she remembered what the store had told me and she said she thinks they told me I was neutral and not a pronator. We both remember the same thing, so I am fairly certain that is what they told me.  I now run in a pair of Brooks shoes (although I can't remember the style).  I will look tonight and then research which style they are designed for and that should confirm my thinking.

 

A local doctor (not one that I had seen for an appointment, just in conversation) told me that there are tons of benefits for the minimalistic shoes and that he highly suggests I try them out.  Then I talked with a buddy that runs a lot and he says he doesn't care that everyone is jumping on the barefoot wagon....those are just not for him.  I will give them a try at the store, but if they feel uncomfortable there, chances are I won't spend 100.00 on them to "work" my way into using them.  But we will see...

post #14 of 22

Running shoes are like golf clubs you need to be fitted for what works best for you.  I'm not against minimalist shoes, they just don't work for me, but I know many people that swear by them.  The goal for all runners is to run without pain, so whatever shoe allows you to do that, that's the right one for you regardless of what I or anyone else says. 

 

On a side note I find it interesting and humorous that these minimalist shoes which supposedly have no support, no cushioning and are designed to simulate running barefooted still cost the same or more than shoes that have all the stability technology and cushioning. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TN94z View Post


That is basically my line of thinking as well.  The store I go to will actually let you put the shoes on and run around the parking lot in them.  I am going to try a few different styles AFTER I get them to fit me again.  I am curious to see how a different person fits me compared to how the original person fit me. I asked my wife last night if she remembered what the store had told me and she said she thinks they told me I was neutral and not a pronator. We both remember the same thing, so I am fairly certain that is what they told me.  I now run in a pair of Brooks shoes (although I can't remember the style).  I will look tonight and then research which style they are designed for and that should confirm my thinking.

 

A local doctor (not one that I had seen for an appointment, just in conversation) told me that there are tons of benefits for the minimalistic shoes and that he highly suggests I try them out.  Then I talked with a buddy that runs a lot and he says he doesn't care that everyone is jumping on the barefoot wagon....those are just not for him.  I will give them a try at the store, but if they feel uncomfortable there, chances are I won't spend 100.00 on them to "work" my way into using them.  But we will see...



 

post #15 of 22
Thread Starter 

Well, after some of you mentioned the IT band, I started doing some reading on it.  Here is a small piece of what I found:

 

 

Quote:
The IT band injury symptoms mainly consist of pain around the knee, especially during activities like running or jumping. IT band pain is classically felt on the outer side of the knee, but can vary in its exact location. Most people with this injury have pain slightly above the knee, where the IT band rubs on the lower end of thigh bone (femur).

 This is where I feel my pain.  I also found some stretches and the foam roller exercise that EastbayEd mentioned.  I am going to take a week off from running and start doing these stretches and exercises and see if that helps.  Thanks for all of the info guys!!!   I'll update if this helped or not.

post #16 of 22
Thread Starter 

So I looked at my shoes and they are Brooks Defyance 2s.  These are for a neutral oriented runner.  So, it looks like they for sure had me as a neutral runner.  I may try to get out to the store tomorrow and have them watch me again and see what a different person tells me.  My knees are still hurting too.  I figured a week would get rid of the pain but it may take longer.

post #17 of 22
Thread Starter 

Well, I finally made it out to the shoe store where I purchased these.  I was fully prepared to get me a new pair of shoes.  So I worked with a different person this time and he was VERY knowledgeable!!  We started like I had never been there before.  I got on the treadmill and ran at 5.4mph for a minute or so while he recorded my impact.  We watched it in slow mo and to my surprise, I am neutral even though I am very flat footed.  He explained it to me and we watched it several times on both feet.  I was really expecting to seem some pronation but it wasn't there.   He then took me outside because he said the treadmill tends to hide things that would come out when you run on asphalt.  So I ran up and down the side walk as he watched.  He said that it actually looked better outside than it did on the treadmill which surprised him.  I was still prepared to buy new shoes because I figured mine were at least worn out.  After looking at my current shoes and feeling the soles and bending them back and forth and looking at the tread....he says that they still have mileage left in them and he wouldn't feel right telling me I needed new shoes.  So the guy worked with me for about 30-45 minutes explaining different things and talking about the minimalistic craze....all to not even sell me shoes which I was perfectly cool with buying.  IMO, that was TOP NOTCH customer service and I will be returning there for sure.

 

So, I am running again in my same shoes and we will see how that goes.  My pain could have just been the normal pains from beginning running....we will see soon enough

post #18 of 22

That's great and it sounds like you found yourself a great local store and salesperson you can trust in the future. 

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