My Swing (Chipless)

**Chipless** · November 22, 2011

You guys asked for it, so here it is.

Four months ago a friend challenged me to learn to golf so we could play together. Since then I have had 14 lessons, hit 8,100 balls at the driving range and worked a lot on chipping and putting. I still suck though. Really bad. I have played three rounds on an easy nine hole course, shooting 65, 68 and 55.

I am 5’11”, 195 pounds, 47 years old and new to golf. I probably have more bulk than I need for golf, left over from my competitive powerlifting days, which ended in 1997. I still lift weights three nights per week. Although it’s a routine based on powerlifting, I no longer train to hoist the most weight. More than anything, I guess I am just trying to maintain some semblance of strength.

As you can see in the video, it has been very difficult for me to unlearn the explosive movements I trained for in powerlifting. Smoothness and tempo seem to be completely against my natural instincts. I won't stop trying though!

This video shows me swinging a 7-iron, with and without balls, from the rear and then the front.

Fire away!

**Grumpter** · November 22, 2011

- Tempo looks OK. So much so that it makes me wonder if maybe you aren't taking slower than normal swings for these taped shots?

- Your head looks like it's swaying some during the backswing and follow through but it's hard to tell how much without a sideshot video.

- You look to be keeping the left arm straight which is something I notice a lot of guys with bigger builds seem to have a problem doing.

One thing you didn't tell us is what is wrong with the shots you hit? Do they slice hard? Do you tend to hit behind the ball losing distance? etc.

**Chipless** · November 22, 2011

Originally Posted by Grumpter

- Tempo looks OK. So much so that it makes me wonder if maybe you aren't taking slower than normal swings for these taped shots?

- Your head looks like it's swaying some during the backswing and follow through but it's hard to tell how much without a sideshot video.

- You look to be keeping the left arm straight which is something I notice a lot of guys with bigger builds seem to have a problem doing.

One thing you didn't tell us is what is wrong with the shots you hit? Do they slice hard? Do you tend to hit behind the ball losing distance? etc.

My coach actually shot this video. He tells me that he feels I am finally starting to grasp the things he is trying to teach me, and felt I could benefit from seeing what my swing looks like in a video.

I have all the above problems that you mentioned. Sometimes when I will hit a ball and I can tell I hit with the sweet spot of the club, and my balance is good. When this happens, the ball will go almost perfectly straight. Other times, I will somehow pull it left. On those shots, it seems to gain another ten or more yards. Sometimes, I will hit the toe of the club and the ball veers off to the right. Sometimes I will hit the ground an inch or two in before the ball, and other times I will top it.

This is the tempo my coach wants me to have. Truthfully, I can't stand not having much distance, so I usually start to speed things up during my practice sessions. When I add speed, my distance increases and my consistency decreases.

Seems like my biggest challenge is consistency. My coach keeps telling me that I have most of the basics down now, and need to just work on each element over and over again, and develop my consistency through practice, practice and more practice.

playbridgestone · November 26, 2011

Swing looks pretty good for 3months. Your coach is right on. Looks like you've got the basics but now you need practice to get the feel. One thing I want to point out that your doing that I used to do when I first started is leaning forward on the back swing. It really helped my swing when I stopped leaning forward. There is evidence of this in your video with your head moving forward. You want to feel like your pushing your butt into the ground almost and loading the power in your legs. Just an idea that made it click for me.

**uttexas** · November 27, 2011

Looks like you are in the early stages of a healthy golf addiction. You clearly have good strength, athleticism, and range of motion--all great for the golf swing. The main issue I see--you sway back with your lower body a lot in the back swing, then swing hard with you arms from the top, not getting your lower body (legs/hips) nearly far enough forward at impact. Secondary issues--you lift up with your arms and hands at the top of the backswing. The legs/hips are of primary importance in the golf swing. You want a good hip turn, while keeping the hips relatively centered, then you want to fire your left knee and hips forward before you start the down swing. On the backswing, feel that your turn your shoulders vertically--feel then your left shoulder turns down toward your right foot, while your hands move in. At the top of the back swing feel that your right forearm is vertical to the ground, then fire your left knee and hips forward, then feel your right elbow leading your right arm in the down swing (skipping a rock). First, I'd work on turning the hips without shifting so much to the rear foot and firing your legs/hips to initiate the down swing. Watch Hogan here, hips turn while staying centered, then huge push forward to initiate the down swing. [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wpyAXvIDYw[/VIDEO]

golf4ever · November 28, 2011

One other thing I can see is on the back swing: your club head is falling below your hands. This has caused the club shaft at the top of the swing to be pointed past the target path.

I would hope your golf pro is using a video with line drawing capablilites to show you where your swing is going astray. It would show your head movements, etc. If you drew a line from the ball through your right shoulder you would have about a 45* line. On the backswing, your clubhead and hands should stay pretty much on this line untill you started the wrist cock halfway back. When the club is on the backswing parallel to the ground, your clubhead and hands should be aligned when looking down the target line.

You are doing great. Keep up the good work. It looks like you have good lag at impact too. I wish I had this good of form after only 3 months.

**Chipless** · November 28, 2011

I really appreciate all the input folks. I plan to work on these areas over the coming weeks.

**JetFan1983** · November 28, 2011

Originally Posted by uttexas

you sway back with your lower body a lot in the back swing, then swing hard with you arms from the top, not getting your lower body (legs/hips) nearly far enough forward at impact.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Chipless

My coach keeps telling me that I have most of the basics down now

I hate to say this, but I respectfully do not agree. OK, deep breath. Here goes:

1) Your instructor is filming you from a bad angle. That messes with the ability to help you. For example, with the angle you provided, it makes it look like your hands are going a lot more inward than they actually are.

2) You need to add a face-on view just to see head movement, wrist angles around impact, and the location of your weight, among other things.

Check out this thread on the proper way to film a golf swing.

The second angle your teacher goes to isn't really useful. Bit of a red flag.

Anyway, as far as the fat and thin shots that you are experiencing, those are caused by having an erratic low point with your swing. An erratic low point is primarily caused by a) a poor weight shift and b) the loss of wrist angles/flipping. Also, this is why you end up with pulled shots, and I'm sure you slice as well. You're throwing too much weight onto your trail foot on the backswing.

Quick Backswing Tip: Keep your weight on your front foot and letting the knee collapse out in front of you, not towards your right knee. Too much weight going back on the backswing. Feel the lead shoulder turning downward so you can keep your head centered. This will assist in letting your hands go more inward.

I noticed at the 0:48 second mark you hit a dead push. You look at your instructor for an answer but all he says is "try one more." The reason you hit that shot is because the club face is pointing that way at impact (obviously). The reason it points there is likely due to the cupping in your lead wrist at the the top of the backswing. When the clubface points directly downward at the top of your backswing, that is a very open position. By impact, on that particularly swing, you have maintained that cupped position, and thus, hit it dead to your right. It also had some right-side spin on it meaning, in this case, that you came over the top.

You often have to pull the ball to get distance by rolling your hands over aggressively in order to square the face. This is an inconsistent way to play golf because there is so much timing involved with getting it right. It also leads to fat and thin shots.

You need to feel bowing or palmar flexion in your lead wrist on the downswing with no release of the wrists, hands or forearms. You are flipping very badly and feeling the exact opposite of what you are currently doing with your wrists will help.

PS- You are taking your hands well above the plane on the backswing and if you get the palmar flexion thing right, you might start hitting pull hooks (you might not since I think you get decent spine tilt, but I'm not sure yet). Sooo, with that in mind, here are the next pieces to straighten out the ball flight again:

Here are two links to get you started on understanding the weight shift and the proper wrist movements in the swing.

The Biggest Secret: Slide your Hips

and,

After you read about the hip slide, you should read this thread about the idea of "secondary axis tilt." Very important to understand. Like I said already, I think (but can't be sure due to the camera angles) that you get some decent side tilt, so you should be okay for now in that regard. But still, you should understand how the hip slide affects the angle of your spine throughout the swing.

Once you understand this stuff, then you can combine them all and start practicing this drill:

You pre-set the hips forward so you can now isolate a few things, in your case, the wrist angles. If you keep hitting it fat, you're flipping your wrists through. As per the flying wedge video by Nick Clearwater that I included below, you need a flat left wrist at impact. Combined with the hips pushing forward, you can now hit the ball before the ground with consistency. If you thin a lot during this drill, I'd watch the length of your arms and whether or not they are retracting on the through swing -- a primary cause for thinned and topped shots.

Pretty much what you want with this drill are well compressed slight draws that go 50-70% of their normal distance.

In this video, the wrists are explained as well:

The Right Hand Flying Wedge Video by Nick Clearwater

Please refer to the Stack and Tilt Academy 's quickie videos on their page for the basic information about this pattern that I'm helping you with. And if for whatever reason you get hung up over the name Stack and Tilt, all I can really say is this is just basic golf mechanics that you simply need to be aware of if you want to improve.

So in review, here are the things you do wrong:

1) Flipping at impact with the wrists

2) Weight shifting too far back on the backswing and then not enough on the downswing

3) Hands well above the plane

4) Too much cupping at the top of your backswing -- cupping is great for good players who have flat left wrists at impact, but in your case you need to feel the opposite:

Dustin Johnson as an example of someone palmar flexing at the top of his backswing:

You see the difference in the wrist angles between you two? Try to hold Dustin's angle through impact. This is so you can start to get the shaft leaning forward at impact.

PS- Don't get your hands as high as Dustin Johnson does. Check out this thread on inward or deep hands . You'll have a hard time swinging from out-to-in with Dustin's positions at the top of his backswing.

Palmar flexion of the lead wrist will help you hit the ball first and actually compress it.

You can practice the hip slide and the new no-release wrist angle (palmar flexion) by using the hit-stop-weight forward drill I provided above by presetting your hips forward. The key here is gaining control over your low point. You need to do a better job of hitting the ground in the same place every time. This is where consistency is born.

The rest of the stuff I talked about is still important that you understand in order to both eventually progress and to believe in what I'm talking about.

And finally, here are some basics that will help you understand how the pieces I talked about coincide with the rest of the swing... and other things you'll need to eventually practice and study.

Yes, this is a lot of information. Perhaps information overkill. But in watching you work with your instructor, it is clear to me you need to hear this stuff one way or the other. It'll take some time to process. I used a lot of language that will be difficult for a beginner to understand. Don't be afraid to ask questions over anything you don't understand.

Please refer to the Golf Evolution Youtube Page for more videos to further your understanding of the swing. They are great.

Here is a link to Erik's Youtube Page for more excellent videos to help you understand the swing.

Based on my own experience, this will be difficult. I sense that my words will likely fall into the void, never to be seen again. This stuff is difficult to work on without an instructor who understands this stuff. But, I'm a believer in trying anyway. You have an athletic build obviously and thus a lot of potential for great golf down the road. But you do not do a lot of important things naturally (not many people out there do). Hence, the long post with a lot of information.

I apologize for likely confusing you as well. And I think I'm starting to get carpel tunnel

**JetFan1983** · November 28, 2011

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

PS- Don't get your hands as high as Dustin Johnson does. Check out this thread on inward or deep hands. You'll have a hard time swinging from out-to-in with Dustin's positions at the top of his backswing.

Oops, misprint. I meant in-to-out. Big difference!

**JetFan1983** · November 28, 2011

Sorry to add three posts in a row on your thread, but because I talked about so many different things, I wanted to conclude what I said above with this, boiling everything you've read down to just this for now, as the most important things you have to work on, based on all the stuff I said in my first post:

Weight Forward

Handle Forward (or hands ahead of the ball at impact)

Using the hit-and-stop-weight-forward drill, you take care of the "weight forward" part by pre-setting the hips forward at the start.

Now you can just focus on keeping the handle of the club ahead of the ball when you get to impact. The hands should be even with your left thigh when the clubhead makes contact with the ball (hence the palmar flexion tips).

Like I said, this controls the low point of your swing so you can make solid contact the most consistently.

A great thing to visualize when doing that drill is an imaginary line on the ground perpendicular to your stance line where the golf ball is resting. You want the clubhead to bottom out on the target side of that line, every time.

In this photo, for you as a right handed golfer, your target would be facing in this direction ------>

**Chipless** · November 29, 2011

I want to say thanks again for the most excellent input you guys have provided. I will start on all this stuff in my practice session today, and get some new (and better) videos as soon as I feel like I am starting to show some improvement. :)

**applejr** · November 30, 2011

Great advice, and lots of good information Jet. Nice of you to put in the time on the forum.

Although Chipless, be careful, too many swing thoughts in your head can be very detrimental. Pick one or two things that he suggested and drill those til you have them down.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I agree.

I hate to say this, but I respectfully do not agree. OK, deep breath. Here goes:

1) Your instructor is filming you from a bad angle. That messes with the ability to help you. For example, with the angle you provided, it makes it look like your hands are going a lot more inward than they actually are.

2) You need to add a face-on view just to see head movement, wrist angles around impact, and the location of your weight, among other things.

Check out this thread on the proper way to film a golf swing.

The second angle your teacher goes to isn't really useful. Bit of a red flag.

Anyway, as far as the fat and thin shots that you are experiencing, those are caused by having an erratic low point with your swing. An erratic low point is primarily caused by a) a poor weight shift and b) the loss of wrist angles/flipping. Also, this is why you end up with pulled shots, and I'm sure you slice as well. You're throwing too much weight onto your trail foot on the backswing.

Quick Backswing Tip: Keep your weight on your front foot and letting the knee collapse out in front of you, not towards your right knee. Too much weight going back on the backswing. Feel the lead shoulder turning downward so you can keep your head centered. This will assist in letting your hands go more inward.

I noticed at the 0:48 second mark you hit a dead push. You look at your instructor for an answer but all he says is "try one more." The reason you hit that shot is because the club face is pointing that way at impact (obviously). The reason it points there is likely due to the cupping in your lead wrist at the the top of the backswing. When the clubface points directly downward at the top of your backswing, that is a very open position. By impact, on that particularly swing, you have maintained that cupped position, and thus, hit it dead to your right. It also had some right-side spin on it meaning, in this case, that you came over the top.

You often have to pull the ball to get distance by rolling your hands over aggressively in order to square the face. This is an inconsistent way to play golf because there is so much timing involved with getting it right. It also leads to fat and thin shots.

You need to feel bowing or palmar flexion in your lead wrist on the downswing with no release of the wrists, hands or forearms. You are flipping very badly and feeling the exact opposite of what you are currently doing with your wrists will help.

PS- You are taking your hands well above the plane on the backswing and if you get the palmar flexion thing right, you might start hitting pull hooks (you might not since I think you get decent spine tilt, but I'm not sure yet). Sooo, with that in mind, here are the next pieces to straighten out the ball flight again:

Here are two links to get you started on understanding the weight shift and the proper wrist movements in the swing.

The Biggest Secret: Slide your Hips

and,

After you read about the hip slide, you should read this thread about the idea of "secondary axis tilt." Very important to understand. Like I said already, I think (but can't be sure due to the camera angles) that you get some decent side tilt, so you should be okay for now in that regard. But still, you should understand how the hip slide affects the angle of your spine throughout the swing.

Once you understand this stuff, then you can combine them all and start practicing this drill:

You pre-set the hips forward so you can now isolate a few things, in your case, the wrist angles. If you keep hitting it fat, you're flipping your wrists through. As per the flying wedge video by Nick Clearwater that I included below, you need a flat left wrist at impact. Combined with the hips pushing forward, you can now hit the ball before the ground with consistency. If you thin a lot during this drill, I'd watch the length of your arms and whether or not they are retracting on the through swing -- a primary cause for thinned and topped shots.

Pretty much what you want with this drill are well compressed slight draws that go 50-70% of their normal distance.

In this video, the wrists are explained as well:

The Right Hand Flying Wedge Video by Nick Clearwater

Please refer to the Stack and Tilt Academy's quickie videos on their page for the basic information about this pattern that I'm helping you with. And if for whatever reason you get hung up over the name Stack and Tilt, all I can really say is this is just basic golf mechanics that you simply need to be aware of if you want to improve.

So in review, here are the things you do wrong:

1) Flipping at impact with the wrists

2) Weight shifting too far back on the backswing and then not enough on the downswing

3) Hands well above the plane

4) Too much cupping at the top of your backswing -- cupping is great for good players who have flat left wrists at impact, but in your case you need to feel the opposite:

Dustin Johnson as an example of someone palmar flexing at the top of his backswing:

You see the difference in the wrist angles between you two? Try to hold Dustin's angle through impact. This is so you can start to get the shaft leaning forward at impact.

PS- Don't get your hands as high as Dustin Johnson does. Check out this thread on inward or deep hands. You'll have a hard time swinging from out-to-in with Dustin's positions at the top of his backswing.

Palmar flexion of the lead wrist will help you hit the ball first and actually compress it.

You can practice the hip slide and the new no-release wrist angle (palmar flexion) by using the hit-stop-weight forward drill I provided above by presetting your hips forward. The key here is gaining control over your low point. You need to do a better job of hitting the ground in the same place every time. This is where consistency is born.

The rest of the stuff I talked about is still important that you understand in order to both eventually progress and to believe in what I'm talking about.

And finally, here are some basics that will help you understand how the pieces I talked about coincide with the rest of the swing... and other things you'll need to eventually practice and study.

Yes, this is a lot of information. Perhaps information overkill. But in watching you work with your instructor, it is clear to me you need to hear this stuff one way or the other. It'll take some time to process. I used a lot of language that will be difficult for a beginner to understand. Don't be afraid to ask questions over anything you don't understand.

Please refer to the Golf Evolution Youtube Page for more videos to further your understanding of the swing. They are great.

Here is a link to Erik's Youtube Page for more excellent videos to help you understand the swing.

Based on my own experience, this will be difficult. I sense that my words will likely fall into the void, never to be seen again. This stuff is difficult to work on without an instructor who understands this stuff. But, I'm a believer in trying anyway. You have an athletic build obviously and thus a lot of potential for great golf down the road. But you do not do a lot of important things naturally (not many people out there do). Hence, the long post with a lot of information.

I apologize for likely confusing you as well. And I think I'm starting to get carpel tunnel

**JetFan1983** · November 30, 2011

Originally Posted by applejr

Great advice, and lots of good information Jet. Nice of you to put in the time on the forum.

Although Chipless, be careful, too many swing thoughts in your head can be very detrimental. Pick one or two things that he suggested and drill those til you have them down.

Thanks, Applejr. Yea, that took a bit of time to write out

And I definitely agree to pick just one or two things. In the third of the three consecutive posts I wrote on this thread, I sort of caught myself in "info overkill mode," and suggested just two things. Ultimately, I wanted Chipless to know how those two tips related to other parts of the swing.

It's going to be tough for him because he needs to change his swing path. It's easier to do with an instructor present -- by oneself though, it can be very challenging. An instructor can at least tell you when you had "a good shank" -- meaning in this case that he was successful in changing the path, even if the contact was horrible. But when you're alone and working on changes, every shank or poor shot appears to be bad. But that's not always the case.

**Chipless** · February 19, 2012

OK. Here we are three months later. I am now seven months invested in trying to learn this game. Sure wish I had started about forty years ago! Anyways, here is what my swing looks like today. Sorry the quality isn't great...

Here's a 3-iron clip:

And here's one with a driver:

**uttexas** · February 22, 2012

Good work, I see less swaying back on the backswing. Turn hips more in the backswing. Allowing the rear leg to straighten more will help you turn more with the hips (more power) Read the deep hands thread [URL]http://thesandtrap.com/t/30325/deep-hands-explained[/URL] You are standing up with the legs too early in the downswing and not getting your hips forward enough Read this thread [URL]http://thesandtrap.com/t/26744/lateral-shift-of-the-hips-on-the-downswing[/URL] You are losing lag (throwing the club) early in the downswing Read [URL]http://thesandtrap.com/t/36669/maintaining-the-flying-wedge[/URL]

CoachJeffPGA · February 29, 2012

Looking good Chipless. You are on the right track!

**Chipless** · March 26, 2012

Here's another update after seven weeks with GolfTEC...

**MacGregor9** · March 26, 2012

I don't usually gives tips/feedback to other players since I feel I don't have a right to, being so young the game. BUT just thought I'd share what I thought of your swing. The first thing I noticed was your knee flex. It seems so much better in your last video, but then again everything looks like it has improved. Have your scores improved? That's the main thing. I love the feeling of working on something, and then going out and having a good round.

Good luck with everything, it's looking good!

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