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Fescue v. Water Hazards?


MrSandman
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I played Newport National in Rhode Island recently.  Hit the ball great, shot about a 100.  Lost a half dozen balls in the fescue.  Five were on tee shots that I honestly thought had been hit well on the perfect line.  Unfortunately for me, there was fescue at the end of the line I took and they resulted in lost balls.  Wasn't my first time playing the course either, but I had never seen the course with the fescue actually grown out.

Got me thinking.  I would rather the course have water hazards than high fescue.  Here is why:

1.  Hit the ball in the water or the fescue, you aren't going to be able to find it.

2.  You hit a ball into the water, you go up and take a stroke penalty; you hit a ball into the fescue you take the one stroke penalty but also lose the distance.

3.  You can generally see the water off the tee and can avoid it;  fescue isn't as noticeable off the tee, doesn't show up in the yardage book, and you cannot always account for it unless you are familiar with the course.

Give me a course where water comes into play on 15 or 16 of the holes instead of a course that has fescue grown all over it.

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Ha ha! One of my 2 home courses is only 6250 yds from the tips, and there's only one water hole, so guess what it's main defense is? Yup, full grown all-out knee deep fescue. It's all over the place. You put it in there and you either lose your ball or take 1 - 3 strokes just hacking it out. The cool thing about this course is that it really puts a premium on ball striking and accuracy.

I dunno. Water, trees, or fescue, it's all the same to me - it can get really frustrating when you're playing poorly, and it's no big deal when you're playing well.

dak4n6

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How does the rating/slope of a course account for fescue?  I don't think it counts it like a hazard.

What's in the bag
Driver: FTI
3W: 15 Degree
2H: X
4I-7I: X-188I, 9I, PW: X-Forged52 Deg: Vokey Oil Can, all rusted out56 Deg: Vokey, Chrome 60 Deg: Black PearlPutter: Catalina Two

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Not much to add other than I'm glad it figures into the slope/rating. Recently played a course for the first time with lots of fescue as well as an unusual amount of protected environmental areas that couldn't be seen from the tee. It destroyed me and my score. I lost all but two balls, think I had around 12 in my bag to start that day.

Dave :-)

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Originally Posted by dak4n6

I dunno. Water, trees, or fescue, it's all the same to me - it can get really frustrating when you're playing poorly, and it's no big deal when you're playing well.


I would totally agree!

Craig 

Yeah, wanna make 14 dollars the hard way?

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We have a links type course here that has marsh-like fescue as the main defense. Luckily it is marked as a hazard with red lines so that if you lose your ball you don't take distance and penalty, just penalty. Other courses that I have played will mark environmentally sensitive areas as OB to keep you out of the area. I personally think that if it can hold water at any time of year then it should be a hazard. If it is a dry patch of tightly grown plants then it should be a lost ball. OB is such a pain in the rear in the OP's case. Occasionally this will happen and you have to re-tee. If you are not able to re-tee because of the tee being occupied or it would unduly slow play, then we advise the player to drop outside the area and they are hitting 4 (we try to avoid this but if the course is jammed it helps keep pace and the peace). In most cases this results in double or worse and would not significantly alter a single digit handicap. If possible, the provisional is the best play for all involved.

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That's great when they mark the marsh/fescue as hazard.  When it is unmarked, and real high, you aren't finding you ball but are penalized stroke and distance.  Also, if it is marked than the yardage book will have it noted or it will be more apparent off the tee that a hazard is out there.

Problem with some of these courses that grow out the fescue is that you don't even know a provisional might be necessary.  I am not exagerrating when I say that most of my lost balls in this particular round were balls that I hit well down the intended line and I fully expected to not only be in play but be in good shape.  Somewhat blind landing areas and unexpected fescue and it is a lost ball.  Some of these course don't grow the fescue full length most of the year, so it pops up on you by surprise even if you have played the course a number of times.

This was a highly rated course (one of the top available courses to the public in New England), and I imagine they had an event or a reason for pimping it out like this.  But it was frustrating as can be.  Couldn't even focus on a real score as after a few lost balls you know your score is going to be outside of your top 10 GHIN scores and a throw away round anyway.

What's in the bag
Driver: FTI
3W: 15 Degree
2H: X
4I-7I: X-188I, 9I, PW: X-Forged52 Deg: Vokey Oil Can, all rusted out56 Deg: Vokey, Chrome 60 Deg: Black PearlPutter: Catalina Two

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Originally Posted by MrSandman

That's great when they mark the marsh/fescue as hazard.  When it is unmarked, and real high, you aren't finding you ball but are penalized stroke and distance.  Also, if it is marked than the yardage book will have it noted or it will be more apparent off the tee that a hazard is out there.

Problem with some of these courses that grow out the fescue is that you don't even know a provisional might be necessary.  I am not exagerrating when I say that most of my lost balls in this particular round were balls that I hit well down the intended line and I fully expected to not only be in play but be in good shape.  Somewhat blind landing areas and unexpected fescue and it is a lost ball.  Some of these course don't grow the fescue full length most of the year, so it pops up on you by surprise even if you have played the course a number of times.

This was a highly rated course (one of the top available courses to the public in New England), and I imagine they had an event or a reason for pimping it out like this.  But it was frustrating as can be.  Couldn't even focus on a real score as after a few lost balls you know your score is going to be outside of your top 10 GHIN scores and a throw away round anyway.

Fescue shouldn't be marked as a hazard. Courses that do so violate the Rules of Golf. The rules for "what is a water hazard" are pretty clear.

Marshes implies water, so that's fine as a hazard.

Don't hit your ball off the course (OB) and don't hit your ball somewhere you can't find it (lost ball). Doing either of those things results in the harshest penalty (other than a DQ) in (stroke play) golf.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Several of courses that I have grown up on have created environmentally sensitive areas.  The reason for doing so was to save on money on not mowing those areas which is a wise business decision.  Of course they are not marked as hazards and you cannot go in and search for your ball.  So this effectively becomes in course out of bounds.  Not a fan of these areas at all.  Nor am I a fan of courses that have little primary rough.  I personally think lining your course with fescue is little more than a masking agent for a poor layout.

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It really depends on the course. Some of the newer courses were built around actual habitiat areas because that was the most appealing space available in their area of choice. The number and variety of birds I see at some of those places doesn't make me doubt the legitimacy of their ESA. Though as pretty as it is to gaze at I tend to prefer courses that are more open. Mostly because it can make for a style of golf I don't like to play. A course with more than one layup area to avoid ESA typically doesn't appeal to me. Especially if I'm not familiar with the layout. As mentioned it's frustrating to hit what appears to be a good shot and lose a ball in what should be the middle of the fairway.

Dave :-)

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Originally Posted by iacas

Don't hit your ball off the course (OB) and don't hit your ball somewhere you can't find it (lost ball). Doing either of those things results in the harshest penalty (other than a DQ) in (stroke play) golf.

So if it is a blind tee shot, you should walk up 150 yards to see the landing area and know that there is no fescue on your target line?  That's great for pace of play.

And much of this fescue is mowed for 90% of the season.  So even knowing the course can result in a shot in the fescue.

What's in the bag
Driver: FTI
3W: 15 Degree
2H: X
4I-7I: X-188I, 9I, PW: X-Forged52 Deg: Vokey Oil Can, all rusted out56 Deg: Vokey, Chrome 60 Deg: Black PearlPutter: Catalina Two

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Originally Posted by MrSandman

So if it is a blind tee shot, you should walk up 150 yards to see the landing area and know that there is no fescue on your target line?  That's great for pace of play.

And much of this fescue is mowed for 90% of the season.  So even knowing the course can result in a shot in the fescue.

What's that have to do with anything? Treat it like OB.

Lost ball and OB = stiff penalty, as they should be.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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Fescue should not be as prevalent on courses as it is (particularly new courses which I assume have it because there are no mature trees on the course).

It looks ugly and slows down play dramatically for the every day golfer. Now if you had marshalls and ball spotters like the tour pros do, it would be different, but since the average guy/course doesn't it just destroys the pace of play on a golf course.

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My pet peeve is when you have very long grass/fescue adjacent to a hazard as this creates a situation where your ball could very well be in the hazard, but where you are not virtually certain that this is the case.  Do you march back and play it as a lost ball- I think the rules say yes, but talk about a way to slow down a round and piss everyone off- first you look in the long grass for 5 min and then you march back to the tee...it also seems to reward the really bad shot (that you KNOW is in the hazard) vs the kinda bad shot that may or may not have leaked into the hazard.

I feel similarly about hazards right next to OB where it can be hard to tell if your ball is in the hazard or OB.

Somewhat related, I blew up a good round yesterday on the 17th hole when my tee shot kicked dead left and wound up with a good lie 1 foot into a hazard that was marked with ESA stakes.  Would have been happy to play it, but after taking the forced penalty drop in an area I thought I would get a decent lie, it rolled into a hole.  Then as I set up to hit it, it appeared the ball moved less than a millimeter.  So I`m hitting 4 sitting in a hole with a forced carry feeling like I haven`t really hit a bad shot yet...I could go on about the heavy rain/wind that started as we got off 16, but will end by saying that I was more over par the last 2 than the first 16...

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Originally Posted by MEfree

My pet peeve is when you have very long grass/fescue adjacent to a hazard as this creates a situation where your ball could very well be in the hazard, but where you are not virtually certain that this is the case.  Do you march back and play it as a lost ball- I think the rules say yes, but talk about a way to slow down a round and piss everyone off- first you look in the long grass for 5 min and then you march back to the tee...it also seems to reward the really bad shot (that you KNOW is in the hazard) vs the kinda bad shot that may or may not have leaked into the hazard.

Kind of OT but here goes. Last time I played Thorncreek (Thornton CO) the starter advised us on the first tee to not return to the previous spot for any balls lost OB. I actually laughed when he told me to just throw one down in the area and use our best judgment within 50y. It was my first time there since the late 90's and I soon figured out why he said that. It was horrendously slow and I did lose a ball or two hitting blind tee shots. I wasn't sure if I was OB or what, just no way to get our eyes on a ball. I got the hang of it after a few holes, they use flags in the fairways in an attempt to get folks to hit to a particular area. From the tee it doesn't look like a good shot to hit to the flag but when I looked back from the green I could see it would have been wise to take the advice.

Dave :-)

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Originally Posted by iacas

What's that have to do with anything? Treat it like OB.

Lost ball and OB = stiff penalty, as they should be.

I think Sandmans point is that you don't know it there.  With O.B. you know it is there from a yardage book or from previous experience and O.B. never moves.  With high grass the location could change due to time of year or maintenance issues.  I know the rules of golf say that you should not mark something as a lateral hazard that never holds water but I think this should be changed.  I know you think that the rules of golf should never be up for discussion but it would not affect high level play or force a course to do anything that they felt would compromise the design of the course.  It would have the added benefit of speeding up play and allow course's to save on maintenance during the off season without radical changing the difficulty of the course.

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Note: This thread is 4275 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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