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Unrealistic simulator during fitting session


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So I got fit for irons for the first time last year.  I had always just been using my Dad's old clubs before that.

I had TM r7 TPs, which were fantastic irons, but I decided to upgrade to RocketBladez Tour... I got to the store and started hitting in their simulator and I was just getting absolutely ridiculous distance numbers.   I was carrying the 7 iron over 215 yards.

For a small, beautiful, fleeting few seconds, I thought maybe the RocketBladez really did hit the ball that much further than my last irons.   And then I thought to myself, "What would the club fitter, who gets commission from the sale, want me to think while I was hitting these?"  So I asked him if I could go grab my current 7 iron from the car to test my hypothesis...  Well (surprise, surprise), my r7 seven iron was going just as far.  I hit my 7 about 180 on a decent swing, and the simulator was adding 35 yards to that!

It was just silly.  He had to know that the machine way over-estimated distances after working there for several years...but he failed to mention it to me. When I brought up how far I was hitting it before I hit my old club, he said, "Oh yeah, these irons will be a lot different than r7 TPs."

I was just thinking back on this today and was wondering if this is a frequent occurrence?  Have any of you experienced this?

I was also spanking an RBZ 3 wood over 300 on average on the same simulator.

srixon.png.c29104d99ab6ca6ecb927e9dd97b26f1.png    Z785 Driver 10.5° Tour AD BB 7x    |    F65 4W Tour AD TP 7x    |    Z765 4-PW Dynamic Gold X100 AMT    |     Z-Star Ball

TM.png.36c3c24d72a4ac809b0def631452f3ba.png    M3 4H HZRDUS Black    |    Spider Tour Putter

titleist.png.c92d01bf6404c1675a5e518a7447f2c6.png  Vokey SM7 50° 55° 60° Dynamic Gold S400 Tour Issue Black

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i found the LM in PGA superstore to be fairly accurate.  however i did get some false readings:

one drive i had a 150mph SS, 203mph ball speed, 350 ball carry. i also had a 125 mph SS

my normal swing was 105-108mph

where were you fitted?

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You had me at "store".

Let's be realistic - how many rounds of golf do you play inside a store? Likewise, how many shots are with an unknown ball on a mat with a no other "real world" factors taken into account. It's close, or pretty near to - zero.

So why put any faith into a simulator system designed to massage your ego which is not related in anyway to how you play golf? If you want an accurate assessment of how a club works for a certain shot at a certain distance, then here are my 3 top tips:

1. Go outside to a golf course.

2. Hit your normal golf ball

3. Look at the ball flight and pace out how far it goes.

That is how you play golf - therefore that is how you gauge equipment. And before anybody says: "I can't find a demo club anywhere near me, blah, blah, blah.." - I'm afraid you'll have to endure the element of doubt and confusion that augmented reality provides. Don't make me come round there.

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Golf Town simulators used to be pretty bad for this.  I always took in one of my own clubs where I knew what they did to use as a control.  They're much better now though since they've changed to a GC2-style launch monitor on the floor.  I still bring in a control club though.

Brad

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I was just thinking back on this today and was wondering if this is a frequent occurrence?  Have any of you experienced this?

Generally, when I have been fitted, it is has been at a local club with the club pro, who, thankfully is much more a golfer than a club engineer. He understands the numbers, can explain them, but also puts them in perspective - generally his first question is "how did that feel?" before looking at the data. One of the impressive things is he can tell a miss without even looking at the data (i.e. "you got under that." Sure enough, look at the screen, and the data says so). I have never found these monitors to mimic on-course performance. That is not to say there isn't value here, but I think we (and certainly store salespeople) get too obsessed with the numbers. You shouldn't be looking for the absolute, but the relative. One club vs. another, even then, are you putting identical swings on both? A good pro also can explain why one might be different from the other in real terms (that loft is stronger, that shaft is softer) and not the marketing mumbo-jumbo (they coat the clubface with DoDecaHrydralize 15!)

But let's just say these monitors were completely accurate. Wouldn't you still have reservations putting full trust in them considering you are indoors, hitting off a plastic mat, on a completely flat lie? For what it is worth, I will also admit that you can drown me in great numbers, but if a club looks ugly, I don't want to be staring at it the next time I am trying to hit a ball. Really, the difference in performance so much among equipment? Or does it come down to preference - what makes us feel the most confident?

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It was just silly.  He had to know that the machine way over-estimated distances after working there for several years...but he failed to mention it to me. When I brought up how far I was hitting it before I hit my old club, he said, "Oh yeah, these irons will be a lot different than r7 TPs."

I was just thinking back on this today and was wondering if this is a frequent occurrence?  Have any of you experienced this?

I was also spanking an RBZ 3 wood over 300 on average on the same simulator.

Yeah there really isn't that much difference between the RBZ Tour irons and the R7 TP irons. I've had similar experiences in golf stores, sales people can change the parameters on the simulators/launch monitors to make the ball go farther. That's why everyone on the internet thinks they hit it 300 yards ;-)

Mike McLoughlin

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A good reason to take your current clubs with you for comparison. If their sims are off at least you will be able to see the difference, right or wrong. It's not going to change shot to shot unless they tweak it in between. Which I've actually seen happen at PGA SS. The only time I hop on one of those is if they have a fitting cart and I want to fart around with different shaft and head combos.

Dave :-)

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Everything I read here makes sense and works for me at this point.

But. . .what about beginners? Are they destined to purchase thousands of $ worth of equipment that doesn't fit them?

Without good simulator readings, a beginner is at the mercy of salesmen with erroneous equipment. He/she will purchase equipment that fits him when he/she has not learned to swing yet, only to need to purchase another set a few months later. I'm not sure this is such a "good" business model unless you only cater to wealthy clients. The average person is going to consider spending $1000 on equipment, and expect it to be an investment that will last for years.

I suppose the counter argument is that they needed this equipment to get to the next level? Seems like they should rent clubs to beginners until they get their swing before they purchase their first set?

In any case, true readings are really important, especially when a beginner purchases his/her first real set of playing clubs. Otherwise, he/she could end up with several sets of clubs most of which are not usable, and have less money to spend on lessons and golf?

For example, I was purchasing my daughters first regular playing clubs several months ago. Her swing is pretty well grounded. We almost bought a set of regular flex shafts because the swing monitor showed that she hits an 8 iron 130 yards. Instead, I instinctively said to get the graphite senior flex shafts and cut them to the ladies length. The salesman, for whom I have the utmost respect, thought this was risky. This turned out to be the right choice. She now hits greens with her 8i 135 yards away.

If we blindly looked at the simulator results and bought the regular flex, she would not be hitting greens and probably be frustrated.

I can only imagine what this could have done to the average beginner. They purchase the clubs, get a lesson, then quit when they do not perform.

The simulators need to be more accurate than they are, so the right choices are made early on.

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

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"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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I doubt many beginners spend that much effort picking out clubs. Assume they are ignorant and have a budget in mind. They likely walk in find something that looks good to them in their price range and buy it.

Dave :-)

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I doubt many beginners spend that much effort picking out clubs. Assume they are ignorant and have a budget in mind. They likely walk in find something that looks good to them in their price range and buy it.

My only contention is that this might lead to many potential golfers quitting prematurely.

I hate to see that for the game.

Here's an example of a club that looks great, and got dumped. I just purchased a set of Mizuno MP-52 in brand new condition (even brand new grips) for $180. The faces are perfectly clean (almost no use), except for the PW which has a little wear near the toe and the a tiny rock dent taken out near the heel of the 4i. They have DG S300 shafts cut 1/4" short, so they are just a little bit stiffer than normal. I strongly suspect that someone was fitted for them, because they are Mizuno. I also suspect that whoever owned them almost never used them by the lack of wear marks on the soft steel forged club. I also strongly suspect the shafts were way too stiff because of the diagonal (fade direction) wear pattern on the bottom of the PW.

Getting properly fitted would have made the previous owner much happier. Although, I would not be their current owner.

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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My only contention is that this might lead to many potential golfers quitting prematurely.

I hate to see that for the game.

Here's an example of a club that looks great, and got dumped. I just purchased a set of Mizuno MP-52 in brand new condition (even brand new grips) for $180. The faces are perfectly clean (almost no use), except for the PW which has a little wear near the toe and the a tiny rock dent taken out near the heel of the 4i. They have DG S300 shafts cut 1/4" short, so they are just a little bit stiffer than normal. I strongly suspect that someone was fitted for them, because they are Mizuno. I also suspect that whoever owned them almost never used them by the lack of wear marks on the soft steel forged club. I also strongly suspect the shafts were way too stiff because of the diagonal (fade direction) wear pattern on the bottom of the PW.

Getting properly fitted would have made the previous owner much happier. Although, I would not be their current owner.


I don't know. The growing pains of beginner golf are mostly inability to play due to lack of skill.  Even a static fitting probably won't prevent them the constant odd body movements they make, takes a while to get "golf coordinated". They probably aren't doing anything the same way twice for a while. I don't know many that get into it expecting immediate progress where using proper clubs would even matter. The time to split hairs is later after some development, IMO of course.

Dave :-)

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I don't know. The growing pains of beginner golf are mostly inability to play due to lack of skill.  Even a static fitting probably won't prevent them the constant odd body movements they make, takes a while to get "golf coordinated". They probably aren't doing anything the same way twice for a while. I don't know many that get into it expecting immediate progress where using proper clubs would even matter. The time to split hairs is later after some development, IMO of course.

I agree that there is some growing pain involved, as I have experienced this very recently. I do think that having accurate simulation results will give someone a better idea of what to expect on the course and at the range.

However, it is not unreasonable for someone to hit a club in the simulator and expect the same or similar results in real life. One problem is when the simulator results show a much higher value and different flight than they get in real life.

I was watching someone last night hitting his driver the same distance I hit my PW (BTW, this is not bragging). He struggled, a lot. He said to someone next to him that the simulator said he should be able to hit pretty far with that club. The clubs he used looked expensive, and I noticed he was using stiff shafts. This was all going on while I was watching my son's main coach and a D1 college player hitting their 54 degree 160 yards or more. The more they hit, the more this person was trying to hit his driver farther. He was so clearly misfitted by faulty equipment.

I just think that this person would have been happy with properly fitted clubs. He is a golfer who looks like he'll quit within another year if he does not get fitted properly.

On the flip side, I also know people hitting sky hooks with under fit equipment. These people tend to stick with the program, and quickly realize that they could play better with stiffer clubs.

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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Quote:

I was watching someone last night hitting his driver the same distance I hit my PW (BTW, this is not bragging). He struggled, a lot. He said to someone next to him that the simulator said he should be able to hit pretty far with that club. The clubs he used looked expensive, and I noticed he was using stiff shafts. This was all going on while I was watching my son's main coach and a D1 college player hitting their 54 degree 160 yards or more. The more they hit, the more this person was trying to hit his driver farther. He was so clearly misfitted by faulty equipment.

I would call this being "over-fit" Anyone remember the days where beginner sets where just the odd numbered clubs? How many people started with a set like that and eventually (maybe even quickly) became very good? Heck, you have the examples of guys like Trevino, Ballesteros, and Chi-Chi learning with one club. Part of that was in those days clubs were all standard with regular flex. There just weren't that many options, which was fine. Now, you can have anything you want done to a set even though most should have very little done. Basically in this tech and spec age we have much more opportunity to screw things up.

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You had me at "store". Let's be realistic - how many rounds of golf do you play inside a store? Likewise, how many shots are with an unknown ball on a mat with a no other "real world" factors taken into account. It's close, or pretty near to - zero. So why put any faith into a simulator system designed to massage your ego which is not related in anyway to how you play golf? If you want an accurate assessment of how a club works for a certain shot at a certain distance, then here are my 3 top tips: 1. Go outside to a golf course. 2. Hit your normal golf ball 3. Look at the ball flight and pace out how far it goes. That is how you play golf - therefore that is how you gauge equipment. And before anybody says: "I can't find a demo club anywhere near me, blah, blah, blah.." - I'm afraid you'll have to endure the element of doubt and confusion that augmented reality provides. Don't make me come round there.

I was hitting balls so he could fit me for lie angle and to see how the club felt. I was not looking at the simulator to tell me how accurately/far I was hitting them. I knew they were good clubs and I knew I would adjust and eventually hit them well. And at @mvmac, here's my two cents on people thinking they hit the ball 300 yards... I play a lot of tournament golf (not saying you don't) and I play with talented golfers a lot. In my experience, the people I play with hit it over 300 on occasion. It isn't that rare. I have a problem when people say they AVERAGE over 300... I have a very high swing speed and am a decent golfer, and I definitely do not average over 300.

srixon.png.c29104d99ab6ca6ecb927e9dd97b26f1.png    Z785 Driver 10.5° Tour AD BB 7x    |    F65 4W Tour AD TP 7x    |    Z765 4-PW Dynamic Gold X100 AMT    |     Z-Star Ball

TM.png.36c3c24d72a4ac809b0def631452f3ba.png    M3 4H HZRDUS Black    |    Spider Tour Putter

titleist.png.c92d01bf6404c1675a5e518a7447f2c6.png  Vokey SM7 50° 55° 60° Dynamic Gold S400 Tour Issue Black

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my partner in our company golf tournament last year has a monster drive hole 1 is 382 & he was about 2 yards short of the green hole 7 is 424 with about 50 yards of down hill  at the end of the hole he was about 5 yards short of the green on that one. 14 is 531 & he hits a driver & 9 iron for his second & is about 3 foot from the cup.it makes me sick to watch him drive or hit any other club for hat matter.

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