Sand bagging is a problem at most clubs.  It is unfortunate that some honest people have to be penalized in order for the tournaments to appear to be fair for all.  

I play most of my rounds for "fun", where no money or very little money is wagered.  I always want to score my lowest to achieve my handicap goal but I may also try to make some shots during a fun round that I'd never try during a big money or tournament match. My scores tend to be lower during tournaments and bigger money rounds because I'm more focused on scoring and playing smarter golf, especially in match play events.  

While the Knuth Tournament Point System minimizes sandbagging, it also penalizes players who play better under pressure.  You and Bob will be playing at a disadvantage to others simply because you're better clutch golfers which is unfortunate.   

I decided not to play tournaments this season except for scramble and such.  My club has made a few more changes to curb the rampant sandbagging issue.  But I don't see the changes to be big enough.  

My take is, no matter what, there will be sandbaggers b/c their desire to win at all cost is bigger than being honest.   

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Is it?

I don't know if I've ever seen really strong numbers on this. Honestly, I think vanity capping is a bigger problem.

I know a lot of people that belong to clubs that complain about the sandbaggers in their club.  Could be sour grapes but the perception is they are sandbagging. 

I agree vanity capping is more common but that works against the vanity cappers that play for money or in tournaments so people don't get as outraged about it.  

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Right… so maybe the vanity handicappers are just pissed that others with legit handicaps are not vanity capping like they are, so they write it off and complain about them as "sandbaggers."

Ah, yes. Makes sense given that Brian (OP) and "Bob" are not sandbaggers while everyone else in their club was upset by their winning all the time because they didn't vanity cap. It was not explicitly clear to me, but that's kind of the impression I got reading the original post. . .

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

Right… so maybe the vanity handicappers are just pissed that others with legit handicaps are not vanity capping like they are, so they write it off and complain about them as "sandbaggers."

That would suggest most vanity cappers don't realize they are vanity cappers?  Makes sense, I know a more than a few.  

8 hours ago, iacas said:

Is it?

I don't know if I've ever seen really strong numbers on this. Honestly, I think vanity capping is a bigger problem.

Maybe part of the sandbagging 'problem' is unwitting vanity cappers (gimmes, etc) getting beat by higher legitimate HCPs?

8 hours ago, iacas said:

Right… so maybe the vanity handicappers are just pissed that others with legit handicaps are not vanity capping like they are, so they write it off and complain about them as "sandbaggers."

Hadn't read down to this...beat me to it. I agree. I'd also argue that course choice has an effect on 'perceived sandbagging' even for folks who follow ROG strictly.

I tend to agree that the actual "sand bagger" is rare when the group or club maintains a steady membership.  No one joins our group and starts winning every event without a spotlight being shown on him.  It is the "one off" event where someone can blow in, shoot 10 shots under his "handicap", and then disappear that attracts the baggers.

My perception is as some of you have mentioned; it is the vanity cappers who talk about sand bagging most frequently.  A "7" who should be a "12" can't understand how a "10" beats him like a drum.  

25 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

I tend to agree that the actual "sand bagger" is rare when the group or club maintains a steady membership.  No one joins our group and starts winning every event without a spotlight being shown on him.  It is the "one off" event where someone can blow in, shoot 10 shots under his "handicap", and then disappear that attracts the baggers.

My perception is as some of you have mentioned; it is the vanity cappers who talk about sand bagging most frequently.  A "7" who should be a "12" can't understand how a "10" beats him like a drum.  

I know there was a lot of real sandbaggers in my bowling leagues but it's not possible to have a vanity bowling average as scoring is handled automatically and overseen by the team you compete against.  

I am convinced sandbagging isn't as big an issue as I first stated, it's much more likely just sour grapes from vanity cappers.  Great discussion!

2 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

I tend to agree that the actual "sand bagger" is rare when the group or club maintains a steady membership.  No one joins our group and starts winning every event without a spotlight being shown on him.  It is the "one off" event where someone can blow in, shoot 10 shots under his "handicap", and then disappear that attracts the baggers.

My perception is as some of you have mentioned; it is the vanity cappers who talk about sand bagging most frequently.  A "7" who should be a "12" can't understand how a "10" beats him like a drum.  

That's getting ridiculous. If vanity capping is so wide spread like this and affecting legitimate handicap players, something should be done about vanity capping! Seriously!

Isn't shooting 10 under in tournaments virtually impossible? I can see shooting 1 or two better?

On a side note, I read that post about not being able to sand bag while bowling by the way, isn't it possible to play worse than you normally play? Or is the system smart enough to detect that?

34 minutes ago, Lihu said:

...Isn't shooting 10 under in tournaments virtually impossible? I can see shooting 1 or two better?

In 2015 a long term member who rarely placed in the top 5 of the "D" flight won his flight with a net "59".  He shot a gross "79" with a handicap of "20". Course rating 67.1/119 for the "D" flight's tees. In his last 100 posted scores, that is the only score in the 70's.

Also last year, another long term member, a former very good player, shot a gross "81" off a 23 handicap for a net "58".  Course rating for the "D" flight was 68.0/127.  His other events?  Gross scores of 95, 98, 98, 94, 98. The last time he shot "81" or lower was 2009.

It happens frequently in our "D" flight.  Never in the "A" and rarely in the "B" or "C".

We watch for players who have a short history with us and put up multiple "career" rounds.  We have retroactively adjusted players tournament handicaps.

15 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

In 2015 a long term member who rarely placed in the top 5 of the "D" flight won his flight with a net "59".  He shot a gross "79" with a handicap of "20". Course rating 67.1/119 for the "D" flight's tees. In his last 100 posted scores, that is the only score in the 70's.

Also last year, another long term member, a former very good player, shot a gross "81" off a 23 handicap for a net "58".  Course rating for the "D" flight was 68.0/127.  His other events?  Gross scores of 95, 98, 98, 94, 98. The last time he shot "81" or lower was 2009.

It happens frequently in our "D" flight.  Never in the "A" and rarely in the "B" or "C".

We watch for players who have a short history with us and put up multiple "career" rounds.  We have retroactively adjusted players tournament handicaps.

Makes sense.

Wow, 79 for a 20 handicapper is pretty nice, he must have been pretty happy!

10 under net in a tournament can happen. I was an 11 handicap when I shot even par....ONCE....and yes only ONCE...

I typically shoot within 3-4 of my index and on occasion beat it. 

I would say every club typically has one or two guys who sandbag, but its not as prevalent as you read online. 

It is so hard to know what is happening in your league.

I know in my club there are always people griping that others are sandbaggers, etc. I believe there are more people who have incorrectly low (vanity) handicaps than there are true sandbaggers.

At my club, there are a group of guys who seem to win often. I'd say it's a group of maybe 6-7 guys. There is only one of them who people consider a possible sandbagger, but I'm not convinced he is.

This is just an hypothesis, but I think part of the reason that "the same" guys seem to win often is that the most serious golfers, the ones who take the game seriously, compete all the time - even in their weekend non-tournament matches - etc., tend to be the guys who most accurately follow the rules, post ALL of their scores, etc. There are a lot of guys at my club who just play "for fun" and are more loose with when and how they post, etc.

Is it any surprise that the more serious group, more experienced at competing and with a more accurate HCP, ends up winning when the tournaments start? These "just for fun" guys get in a tournament where they can't just drag away every three footer, and they play above their handicap level.

I think the biggest contributor to wrong handicaps is that people don't understand all of the posting rules. You have to post every round. Every one. There are rare exceptions....but you post, even if you don't play all 18. You post, even if it was windy and rainy and you went inside after 9. When someone concedes your meaningless 10 footer because they don't want you to give your partner the line, you don't add one to your score, you add 2, because most of the time you are going to 2 putt from 10 feet.

That's my take anyway. I've heard about true sandbaggers, so I know it exists. The guy who shows up as the guest in the member guest, has an 11 handicap, hits the ball 300 yards off the tee and shoots 73 gross. But these guys are rare, in my experience.

10 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

In 2015 a long term member who rarely placed in the top 5 of the "D" flight won his flight with a net "59".  He shot a gross "79" with a handicap of "20". Course rating 67.1/119 for the "D" flight's tees. In his last 100 posted scores, that is the only score in the 70's.

Also last year, another long term member, a former very good player, shot a gross "81" off a 23 handicap for a net "58".  Course rating for the "D" flight was 68.0/127.  His other events?  Gross scores of 95, 98, 98, 94, 98. The last time he shot "81" or lower was 2009.

The stars do align sometimes, but 10 or more under your expected average score is super rare. Dean Knuth has a page with some odds (http://www.popeofslope.com/magazine/howtodetect.html).

Quote

What are the odds of that 16-handicapper breaking 80?
Knuth: The odds of someone beating their handicap -- if it's an honest handicap -- by eight strokes are 1,138 to 1. For most players that represents about 54 years of golf -- a lifetime for many. The odds of beating your number by eight strokes twice are 14,912 to 1, or 710 years of golf.

Quote

Knuth: About 1 to 2 percent of golfers are sandbaggers, and about 10 percent fall into the vanity-handicap category (also called "reverse sandbaggers").

Possibly in your D-flight you've got some real bombers who just had a great day and hit every fairway with driver, but you'd expect some rounds with close to that performance in their regular rounds too if they truly were a 'wild willy'.

@natureboy:  Thanks.  I am aware of the chart.  We get some wild "net" numbers out of our "D" flight but few repeat the feat.

Knuth says odds are 1,138 to 1 that a person beats their (honest) hcp by 8 shots. Hmmm there is a guy at my club who is a 14. He breaks 80 once or twice a year, every year. Had a 76 last year. I don't think his hcp is too large....if anything it's a bit vanity-ish. The course rating is around 70.....so his 76 beat it by 8.  Usually he gets a 78 or 79 once or twice a year. Without going into too much detail, he is just an unusually inconsistent golfer.  He can hit his driver close to 300 yards but typically hits a 220 yard half-smother. He is a good putter.  When he's "on" he is tough to play. You can never count him out when playing a match.  These guys are rare I think.

9 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

Knuth says odds are 1,138 to 1 that a person beats their (honest) hcp by 8 shots. Hmmm there is a guy at my club who is a 14. He breaks 80 once or twice a year, every year. Had a 76 last year. I don't think his hcp is too large....if anything it's a bit vanity-ish. The course rating is around 70.....so his 76 beat it by 8.  Usually he gets a 78 or 79 once or twice a year. Without going into too much detail, he is just an unusually inconsistent golfer.  He can hit his driver close to 300 yards but typically hits a 220 yard half-smother. He is a good putter.  When he's "on" he is tough to play. You can never count him out when playing a match.  These guys are rare I think.

Makes sense, and not so rare. I was going to add something in an earlier post and was kind of thinking that longer hitters definitely have the ability to beat their handicaps. If they happen to hit down the middle one day, they could easily take off a lot of strokes.

Funny, we also have a long hitter who was designated a 14, but never plays that good.

11 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

@natureboy:  Thanks.  I am aware of the chart.  We get some wild "net" numbers out of our "D" flight but few repeat the feat.

Perhaps by seeing so many golfers over so many years you are present for more rare events.

My point with the Knuth reference was that a person who is capable of such a score, but has an accurate HCP will have a large anti-cap / variability index...their distribution of regularly posted scores will be much broader and flatter than a very consistent golfer (who has the more 'typical' 1,000 to 1 odds of shooting 8 under) so they should post roughly the same distribution of scores up to 13 over their HCP as those down to 10 below.

According to Knuth 'Wild Willies" account for about 8% of golfers with HCPs.

These gentlemen are all 50+ years old and most are 70+.  No "bombers" among them.  My best guess is for one 4-5 hour period they are feeling pretty good, remember how they used to play and get a few breaks.

 

These gentlemen are all 50+ years old and most are 70+.  No "bombers" among them.  My best guess is for one 4-5 hour period they are feeling pretty good, remember how they used to play and get a few breaks.

I suppose at that age there might be a scoring equivalent to 'Wild Willie' of 'Yippy Yorick' who 2-chips and 3-putts a lot despite their experience with the game, but pulls it together on occasion. Also a bad vs. good day with arthritis, eyesight, energy, etc. can definitely affect one's game a ton.

That said, just because someone is older doesn't mean they aren't still a hyper-competitive jerk willing to bend the rules to win. I recognize you are in a better position to evaluate the specific situation. Rare events still do happen despite high odds, and the more total rounds under consideration / evaluation, the more likely a rare event is to be represented among all the outcomes.

On the general thread I came across an interesting contrarian blog that actually blames the existence of sandbagging on the built-in winning bias favoring lower HCP players 'inherent in the system': http://www.ongolfhandicaps.com/2013/10/usga-war-on-sandbagging-part-iv-usga-to.html. It almost sounds like the author would paint the ruling HCP committees as hyper-competitive jerks willing to re-write (or just maintain) the rules in order to preserve their winning edge. Of course improvements to the HCP system have lessened (but not eliminated) the winning % edge for better players, but it apparently took quite a while for changes to the HCP system. The bonus for excellence used to be .85!

I wonder if there isn't some degree of unaware vanity capping (gimmes e.g.) among some top committee types who then become hyper-vigilant about sandbaggers when they start losing an equitable share of matches due to their own inaccurate HCP and then develop a knee-jerk resistance to a more genuinely equitable HCP system?

Similarly a player who has grinded their way to a low HCP over many years by polishing / grooving their game to its max potential, but loses to someone with more physical ability (longer / 'bigger' game), but less refined scoring ability (larger variance in scores) is likely to perceive that player as a sandbagger even though they are just being 'caught up' by a player who will develop a much lower HCP if they stick with it as long as the 'grinder'. The lower variability in scoring (the smaller standard deviation in scores) for the typical lower HCP - someone who has a better overall game and more consistent swing - is IMO enough of a bonus for excellence if you want to reward the player who played better (relative to their average) on the day. They don't need to also take the top 10 of the last 20 instead of average and the .96 too.

Maybe some of this effect (besides just the sheer difficulty of the game) is what prevents newbies from sticking with golf once they try it? Personally I use my HCP to track improvement (or lack thereof), not bet, so it's pretty immaterial to me. But for some, competition with golf buddies or club peers is part of the fun and if there's a perception of an uneven playing field, maybe it keeps some with potential from sticking with the game?