Embedded Ball Relief Question

[iacas]

1 minute ago, JDgolf said:

It has nothing to do with out of bounds.

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

He's just giving an example of when you may or may not be able to make a stroke, because the same standard applies to your tree situation.

And @JDgolf, you keep making posts with quoted text but nothing original. No reply or text of your own.

[JDgolf]

 

On 4/19/2019 at 3:35 AM, Rulesman said:

The principle applies to all free relief situations.

The question to be answered is:

'If the situation from which I may take free relief (cart path, temporary water, embedded ball etc) didn't exist, would I be able to make a reasonable stroke at the ball?

If the answer is no because something else interferes that you don't get free relief from (eg a tree or OOB wall), then you don't get free relief from the cart path etc.

Thanks 

Edited April 20, 2019 by JDgolf

[JDgolf]

On 4/17/2019 at 8:58 PM, iacas said:

If your ball is embedded in the general area you're entitled to relief (assuming the Local Rule isn't in effect limiting it to fairway height or lower).

If you can chip out sideways, then the ball is still embedded. If it's possible to reasonably play a stroke in some direction, you are entitled to relief, and then after relief is taken, can play in any direction.

But why would you want to just chip out if you get relief? You could… but why?

"Fairway height or lower"

Wrong, 2019 rules. Learn the definition of general area.

"If you can chip out sideways"

Wrong. Nowhere in the rules specifies this.

 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

You do if you could chip out sideways or backward.

In other words, if the ball weren't embedded, if you have a stroke at the ball that you could reasonably play, you're entitled to relief.

Just because the hole is through the tree or whatever doesn't mean you don't have "a" stroke at the ball.

Wrong

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

"Fairway height or lower"

Dude: I'm a rules official, and I'm "expert status" on the Rules of Golf:

13 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

"Fairway height or lower"

Wrong, 2019 rules. Learn the definition of general area.

I said: "assuming the Local Rule isn't in effect limiting it to fairway height or lower."

30 Days of 2019 Rules Changes: Day 18 – Relief for an Embedded Ball | Rules Geeks

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In 2018, Rule 25 allows relief for a ball embedded in its own pitch mark when the ball is embedded in grass cut to fairway height or lower through the green. However a Committee may adopt a Local R…

30 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

"If you can chip out sideways"

Wrong. Nowhere in the rules specifies this.

It does. It says if you have "a" shot then you're entitled to relief. It doesn't say you have to have only the shot toward the green.

32 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

Wrong

I'm not.

[JDgolf]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

And@JDgolf, you keep making posts with quoted text but nothing original. No reply or text of your own.

I don't know what youre saying. All my posts are original.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, JDgolf said:

I don't know what youre saying. All my posts are original.

This:

You kept quoting posts and not adding any response text or anything.

I got your PM, but if you'd care to apologize for the "wrong" and "learn the definition" comments publicly, I'd appreciate it.

[JDgolf]

I respect your knowledge, respect mine

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

I respect your knowledge, respect mine

What? When? You haven't demonstrated much - you're the one asking the question here, and you just told me I'm "wrong" twice and that I need to learn the definitions.

So how about this: draw a diagram, please, showing the ball, the tree, and the situation you're talking about.

[JDgolf]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

What? When? You haven't demonstrated much - you're the one asking the question here, and you just told me I'm "wrong" twice and that I need to learn the definitions.

So how about this: draw a diagram, please, showing the ball, the tree, and the situation you're talking about.

Lol. The ball is behind a tree in the general area, embedded,  interfering the stance or swing. 

 

 

[David in FL]

12 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

Lol. The ball is behind a tree in the general area, embedded,  interfering the stance or swing. 

 

 

Huh?

It’s easy.  If you would have a reasonable shot if the ball was not embedded, you get relief.  If not, you don’t.

Reasonable doesn’t necessarily mean good...

What are you not understanding here?

 

 

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

Lol. The ball is behind a tree in the general area, embedded,  interfering the stance or swing.

Oh brother. It's not that complicated.

If the hole is in the direction as the red arrow, the green arrows are still reasonable strokes to play, and thus the ball, if embedded, is in such a position that you're granted relief.

You don't even have to be able to make the stroke right-handed, or with the clubface (the Rules say only that you have to strike the ball with the clubhead).

[Rulesman]

8 hours ago, JDgolf said:

It has nothing to do with out of bounds.

Indeed, it is all about the 'reasonableness' or practicality of being able to make a stroke if the issue for which you are claiming relief didn't exist.

You don't get free relief from anything (embedded ball, cart path, GUR etc) if you can't make a reasonable stroke because of something else preventing you from which you don't get free relief (eg being up against an OOB wall or stuck between the roots of a tree

 

 

The Rule in question says

Exceptions – When Relief Not Allowed for Ball Embedded in General Area: Relief under Rule 16.3b is not allowed:

• When interference by anything other than the ball being embedded makes the stroke clearly unreasonable (for example, when a player is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush).

This shows that if a stroke is reasonable then relief is allowed

Edited April 21, 2019 by Rulesman

[Rulesman]

16.1a(3)/1

Obstruction Interfering with Abnormal Stroke May Not Preclude Player From Taking Relief

In some situations a player may have to adopt an abnormal swing, stance or direction of play in playing his or her ball to accommodate a given situation. If the abnormal stroke is not clearly unreasonable given the circumstances, the player is permitted to take free relief under Rule 16.1.

For example, in the general area, a right-handed player's ball is so close to a boundary object on the left side of a hole that he or she must make a left-handed swing to play towards the hole. In making the left-handed swing, the player's stance is interfered with by an immovable obstruction.

The player is allowed relief from the immovable obstruction since use of a left-handed swing is not clearly unreasonable in the circumstances.

After the relief procedure for the left-handed swing is complete, the player may then use a normal right-handed swing for the next stroke. If the obstructioninterferes with the right-handed swing, the player may take relief for the right-handed swing under Rule 16.1b or play the ball as it lies.

[Fourputt]

19 hours ago, JDgolf said:

Let's start fresh and simple. I apologise for the formatting:

I made a stroke and it landed in the general area. The ball landed in the general area embedded behind a tree that interfered with my intended stance or swing.

Normally, if the ball wasn't embedded you don't get free relief from the tree. 

I could take advantage of the embedded ball rule and knee drop it one club length around the tree (which gives me a good approach to the green). 

BUT, current rules,16.3, makes it unclear to me:

."When interference by anything other than the ball being embedded makes the 
stroke clearly unreasonable (for example, when a player is unable to make a stroke
because of where the ball lies in a bush"

 

 

 

I don't get relief, thank you

If the ball lay in the same spot but was not embedded, you might still be able to play a stroke to a location where your next shot would have  path to the green.  In that case you DO get to take relief because you DO have the possibility of making a reasonable stroke at the ball if it was not embedded.  "Reasonable" does NOT have to be in the direction that the player might prefer, only that if the ball was not embedded that it would be a logical possibility to do so rather than drop under penalty (as in chipping out sideways, or even in a direction away from the hole which would offer relief for the next stroke). 

If that reasonable tag does not apply, as in the ball is clearly lying in a place where there is no possible stroke in any reasonable direction, even if the lie of the ball is otherwise pristine, then you would be required to proceed under penalty for an unplayable ball.

[Fourputt]

It was mentioned earlier in this thread that playing left handed (for a right handed golfer) would be considered "reasonable".  I tend to disagree with that contention, as least as far as I'm concerned.  I've tried such a few times, and those attempts have proven that playing a stroke left handed is not, for me, a remotely reasonable play.  Would I then be allowed under the rules to take relief if a left handed stroke was the only play if the ball was not embedded? 

I am so strongly biased to a right handed swing that most attempts at going the other way have resulted in a first swing whiff.  Add to my ineptness the fact that I'm using a club in a manner (either reversed or just hitting with the back of the clubhead) which I would never consider for a right handed swing, and you see my dilemma.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Fourputt

[iacas]

39 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I tend to disagree with that contention

Your own particular skills are irrelevant, as the Rules allow someone to play a left-handed shot. For example, in my diagram, either of the two green arrows might be fine, and if the guy only has to hit a ball a few feet to be clear of the tree, it's very reasonable that a normal person could move the ball a few feet with a left-handed stroke.

I don't think most people face your "dilemma" because I think most people could move the ball a few yards with an opposite-handed stroke.

[JDgolf]

Ok. Lot of you guys just run your mouth and I don't care about your supposed credentials. 

In the spirit of Easter Sunday, quote the 2O19  text of the the Golf Rules, like a Biblical reference, not what you just type as "fact".

Give me time. Its spring and country club caddying season is on. 

 

 

[JDgolf]

On 4/17/2019 at 8:58 PM, iacas said:

If your ball is embedded in the general area you're entitled to relief (assuming the Local Rule isn't in effect limiting it to fairway height or lower).

If you can chip out sideways, then the ball is still embedded. If it's possible to reasonably play a stroke in some direction, you are entitled to relief, and then after relief is taken, can play in any direction.

But why would you want to just chip out if you get relief? You could… but why?

Please tell me in English what the f*** does this mean? Happy Easter.

2019 rules please