Driving for Show, Putting for Dough, or Is It?

[klineka]

29 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

Is this based on a certain baseline for putting skill? Like is this an assumption that everyone makes 3-4 footers? 

If someone has a major weakness relative to other people of their same skill level then that can become more important. But those are rare and are outliers.

29 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

but what's killing me is the amount of 3-6 ft putts that I miss per round which result in bogeys after 3 putting or even sometimes 4 putting when I hit the green in regulation. 

Do you have the exact numbers/percentages from your own game that back that up, or do you simply feel like you miss more 3-6 footers than you should?

The one putt probability from 5 feet for a scratch golfer, so someone who likely shoots at least 10+ strokes better per round than you, is only 66%. The one putt probability from 5 feet for a 90-golfer is only 50%.  That means in order for short range putting to be a glaring weakness for you, IMO you would be needing to make less than 50% of your 5 foot putts. 

29 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

which result in bogeys after 3 putting or even sometimes 4 putting when I hit the green in regulation. 

What is your average proximity when you hit a GIR?

Assuming you average at least 30-40 feet proximity when hitting a GIR, it's reasonable to expect an 80s shooter to 3 putt 25% of the time. That's just the average. That number would have to be significantly higher before I would consider it a glaring weakness. 

29 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

but my peers aren't giving up strokes on putting like I am when starting their putt from similar distances or even chipping from off the green... 

Do you know this for a fact? Or do you just feel that to be the case? If you have stats please provide them and we can help determine if your putting is actually a glaring weakness or not.

Also it is entirely possible that you are a worse putter than the average 80s shooter, but putting not be a glaring weakness for you. Just because you might be worse than average doesn't necessarily mean it's a glaring weakness IMO.

Edited February 2, 2021 by klineka

[klineka]

6 minutes ago, StuM said:

My view is that all aspects of the game have value and different golfers needs to focus on different areas of the game. 

Outside of glaring weaknesses, that is factually incorrect. The numbers indicate most golfers will benefit the most by focusing on the same parts of the game, off the tee and full swing shots.

7 minutes ago, StuM said:

For me, in 2020 I averaged 3-putts 25% of the time.  That works out to 4-5 "Wasted Putts" per round. 

Do you know what the average proximity of the initial putts for the times that you 3 putted were? If that average is anything over 30 feet, (which good chances are it is) then you are putting right in line with people of your similar handicap level.

23 minutes ago, StuM said:

but lack of putting skill can kill a round. 

And penalty strokes can kill a round even faster than three-putts

12 minutes ago, StuM said:

Imagine being on a hole in regulation and walking off with a bogey. I can tell you, IT SUCKS!. 

It happens to everyone, far more often than I think you realize. 90-golfers have a 30% three-putt probability from 40 feet. Even from 30 feet its nearly 20%. You could three-putt 25% of the time from 30 feet and I wouldn't consider putting to be a glaring weakness for your skill level.

16 minutes ago, StuM said:

As for pros and lower-HCP players I presume the dreaded 3-Putt is less frequent so for them focus on drives and approach shots may shave more strokes off their round than focusing on putting.  If they can get in the legendary 3-foot circle on most holes then they will have more opportunities for 1-Putts and that will help a lot.

Couldn't the same be said for high handicap players though? With the biggest difference between most low and high handicap players being the number of full swing strokes it takes for both groups of golfers to get within that 3 foot circle?

Even just to go from a 90-shooter to an 80-shooter on average 6.5 strokes will come from driving and approach and only 1.4 strokes from putting. 

Unless you can prove that putting is a glaring weakness, I highly suggest following something close to the 65/20/15 ratio listed above. If you really want to focus on your putting that's fine, maybe make it something like 60/15/25, but personally I wouldn't go much above 25%.

[iacas]

55 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

Is this based on a certain baseline for putting skill? Like is this an assumption that everyone makes 3-4 footers? 

My driving and approach is better than most ppl that break 80 but I shoot in the mid to high 80s

I'll have an errant drive which results in a triple bogey every now and then but what's killing me is the amount of 3-6 ft putts that I miss per round which result in bogeys after 3 putting or even sometimes 4 putting when I hit the green in regulation. 

Sure you can say, if my approach was better, I'd be putting for birdie, but my peers aren't giving up strokes on putting like I am when starting their putt from similar distances or even chipping from off the green... 

But would you still say that my practice time is best served by hitting drives and approaches? 

@klineka made a good post, but basically, I see it as one of two things:

• Your putting is a glaring weakness, and you should work on it. We can only really talk about generalities in broad topics like this, about how "important" putting is overall.
• You think your putting is a glaring weakness, but you don't have the stats to show it, and you're off base. You may even be a better putter than you think. (Probably not, but there's a Justin Rose story about how he really wanted to work on his wedge game… until Sean Foley looked at the stats and told Justin he was the best wedge player on Tour the previous year. So it can happen.)

2 minutes ago, klineka said:

Outside of glaring weaknesses, that is factually incorrect.

Kevin, it's not factually incorrect to say all areas of the game are important and deserve attention. He didn't say "equally" or anything.

[klineka]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Kevin, it's not factually incorrect to say all areas of the game are important and deserve attention. He didn't say "equally" or anything.

True. Good point. 

The thought I was trying to get across with the first statement was that most golfers will benefit the most by focusing on the same areas of their games, that being off the tee and approach shots.

[StuM]

19 minutes ago, klineka said:

Outside of glaring weaknesses, that is factually incorrect. The numbers indicate most golfers will benefit the most by focusing on the same parts of the game, off the tee and full swing shots.

Do you know what the average proximity of the initial putts for the times that you 3 putted were? If that average is anything over 30 feet, (which good chances are it is) then you are putting right in line with people of your similar handicap level.

And penalty strokes can kill a round even faster than three-putts

It happens to everyone, far more often than I think you realize. 90-golfers have a 30% three-putt probability from 40 feet. Even from 30 feet its nearly 20%. You could three-putt 25% of the time from 30 feet and I wouldn't consider putting to be a glaring weakness for your skill level.

Couldn't the same be said for high handicap players though? With the biggest difference between most low and high handicap players being the number of full swing strokes it takes for both groups of golfers to get within that 3 foot circle?

Even just to go from a 90-shooter to an 80-shooter on average 6.5 strokes will come from driving and approach and only 1.4 strokes from putting. 

Unless you can prove that putting is a glaring weakness, I highly suggest following something close to the 65/20/15 ratio listed above. If you really want to focus on your putting that's fine, maybe make it something like 60/15/25, but personally I wouldn't go much above 25%.

I do not disagree with your comments just that for some golfers, including myself, putting improvement can be valuable.  In my 2021 goals I outlined 3 goals specific to parts of my game including Driving Accuracy, Approach to Green and Putting.   I do not have specific average proximity to hole however I can tell you I cannot read a green.  I will have a 10 footer that I believe is a left to right break only to see it break right to left and leave a 5 footer coming back.  I do tend to leave putts short and that is a real problem with the 30 footers but my problem is not only on the long putts.  

[klineka]

 

3 minutes ago, StuM said:

just that for some golfers, including myself, putting improvement can be valuable.

Absolutely. No argument from me there at all. Improving my mid range (6-15feet) putting is one of my goals for 2021 as well, since last year I lost over half a stroke per round compared to scratch golfers from that range.

2 minutes ago, StuM said:

however I can tell you I cannot read a green.  I will have a 10 footer that I believe is a left to right break only to see it break right to left and leave a 5 footer coming back.  I do tend to leave putts short and that is a real problem with the 30 footers but my problem is not only on the long putts.  

Highly recommend finding an AimPoint instructor near you and taking a lesson/course with him/her. Once you learn that it's a very easy skill to maintain and should help you tremendously with your green reading.

[StuM]

25 minutes ago, klineka said:

 

Highly recommend finding an AimPoint instructor near you and taking a lesson/course with him/her. Once you learn that it's a very easy skill to maintain and should help you tremendously with your green reading.

I have identified an AimPoint instructor and last fall we agreed to wait for spring before taking the lessons.  I left him a message earlier today asking to schedule.  My expectation is to take the 1st lesson in Mid-March and hopefully the weather is good enough that I can get some out-door practice under my belt.  Its just too cold & snowy in Michigan now to do any golf outdoors.  I know I could find an indoor putting green but my preference is for real grass.

[badbeatj]

4 hours ago, klineka said:

If someone has a major weakness relative to other people of their same skill level then that can become more important. But those are rare and are outliers.

Do you have the exact numbers/percentages from your own game that back that up, or do you simply feel like you miss more 3-6 footers than you should?

The one putt probability from 5 feet for a scratch golfer, so someone who likely shoots at least 10+ strokes better per round than you, is only 66%. The one putt probability from 5 feet for a 90-golfer is only 50%.  That means in order for short range putting to be a glaring weakness for you, IMO you would be needing to make less than 50% of your 5 foot putts. 

What is your average proximity when you hit a GIR?

Assuming you average at least 30-40 feet proximity when hitting a GIR, it's reasonable to expect an 80s shooter to 3 putt 25% of the time. That's just the average. That number would have to be significantly higher before I would consider it a glaring weakness. 

Do you know this for a fact? Or do you just feel that to be the case? If you have stats please provide them and we can help determine if your putting is actually a glaring weakness or not.

Also it is entirely possible that you are a worse putter than the average 80s shooter, but putting not be a glaring weakness for you. Just because you might be worse than average doesn't necessarily mean it's a glaring weakness IMO.

Thanks for your comments 

I think a great question you asked was whether my comments about my putting was statistically logged or just perception. 

I lose track of my putts when I'm on the field so I will do a better job recording this summer. 

When I step up to a 3/4 ft putt, I have major trepidation and have a losers mentality. If it is on a hilly green, game over... That's a 2 putt. 

I am definitely under 50% on 5 ft putts which lead to a few more bogeys per round. 

I know golf simulators are not the same as on course. I do struggle on tougher courses like Augusta (members tees) where fairways are tree lined and fairway bunkers are in my shot zone but on wider courses like Cabot Cliffs, I shoot quite well. 

I avg 155 mph ball speed and carry 250 yds on my driver. (spin is a bit higher than I like at 2800-3k rpm) 

My 7 iron is 175 yds and usually within 15 yds left or right of target

My 9 iron and wedges are within 10 yds of target. 

I put gimmes at 6ft

My scores are mid to high 70s on a sim

I admit, I have a perfect lie every shot which I arbitrarily attributed a 5 stroke improvement compared to real life. 

I had guessed that the other 5+ strokes in improvement was due to the 6 ft gimmes

I have been practicing hard all winter and psyched for golf season to start. 

I've been practicing my approaches and chips 80 yds and in and feel quite confident there. 

I'm getting my 30 yd shots to spin at 5500+ rpm and check up on the green

My hope is to break 80 this year but I feel like putting is my Achilles heel that prevents this. 

Am I wrong? 

Is it still Driver that I need to work on? 

I think I'll actually record my driver stats and perhaps post it here because you guys may be right. 

While I focus and lament on putting, maybe my driver does need improvement in terms of dispersion. 

How many balls should I hit? 

 

 

[iacas]

26 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

My 7 iron is 175 yds and usually within 15 yds left or right of target

My 9 iron and wedges are within 10 yds of target. 

…

My hope is to break 80 this year but I feel like putting is my Achilles heel that prevents this.

The bold… what? Those are on a sim? Those are not what you're doing on the golf course, are they? Those are nearly PGA Tour level. Or at PGA Tour level, since you say "within," implying that those are the outer ranges of the shots, not the average(s).

[boogielicious]

5 hours ago, StuM said:

I know I could find an indoor putting green but my preference is for real grass.

One thing you should practice at home before your AimPoint lesson is starting your putts on line. I was given this advice before my first lesson. I basically practiced 1-3 foot putts on a flat surface. I usually used another ball to aim at at tried to hit the ball dead center.

[badbeatj]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

The bold… what? Those are on a sim? Those are not what you're doing on the golf course, are they? Those are nearly PGA Tour level. Or at PGA Tour level, since you say "within," implying that those are the outer ranges of the shots, not the average(s).

LOL now. I'm rethinking this. 

Yes it's on the Sim. When people are verifying data, how many shots is the minimum sample size? 

Isn't hitting wedges within 10 yards a legitimate thing? 

 

That's still a 30ft putt? 

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

Isn't hitting wedges within 10 yards a legitimate thing? 

That's still a 30ft putt? 

If you hit your 7I 175 yards, then let's say your 9I goes 145.

From 125-250, from the fairway, the PGA Tour average in 2020, is 23 feet.

Approaches from 125-150 yards | PGA TOUR Stats

---

Strokes Gained | Greens in Regulation | Accuracy from Fairway | Accuracy from Rough | Scoring | Going for it | Holeouts, Other

Odds are good you're not hitting them from 145 inside of 30 feet all that regularly.

[badbeatj]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

If you hit your 7I 175 yards, then let's say your 9I goes 145.

From 125-250, from the fairway, the PGA Tour average in 2020, is 23 feet.

Approaches from 125-150 yards | PGA TOUR Stats

---

Strokes Gained | Greens in Regulation | Accuracy from Fairway | Accuracy from...

Odds are good you're not hitting them from 145 inside of 30 feet all that regularly.

I'll recheck my 9 iron numbers tonight. It may be more like my 52 degree (125 yds) and inside that are within 10 yds which I'm pretty confident with. Even then, a 3 putt is not uncommon for me. 

I am here because I want to improve. I don't need to be right. I just want to get better. 

My drive does need work. I am the first to admit that I work on this part of my game the most. I want to say that I'm within the 60 yard dispersion but I'm not because every now and then, I'll hook one 45 yards left or slice 45 yards right. So I guess that's like an 90 yard dispersion while 80 % of my shots are within the 65-70 yard dispersion. 

I know I have to eliminate these random erratic shots. 

What do you do if a fairway is like 35 yards wide and tree lined on both sides? 

 

[badbeatj]

13 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

I'll recheck my 9 iron numbers tonight. It may be more like my 52 degree (125 yds) and inside that are within 10 yds which I'm pretty confident with. Even then, a 3 putt is not uncommon for me. 

I am here because I want to improve. I don't need to be right. I just want to get better. 

My drive does need work. I am the first to admit that I work on this part of my game the most. I want to say that I'm within the 60 yard dispersion but I'm not because every now and then, I'll hook one 45 yards left or slice 45 yards right. So I guess that's like an 90 yard dispersion while 80 % of my shots are within the 65-70 yard dispersion. 

I know I have to eliminate these random erratic shots. 

What do you do if a fairway is like 35 yards wide and tree lined on both sides? 

 

Sorry the question should be rephrased. At how wide of a fairway should the driver be put away? 

And I mean width as in hazards or trees on either side resulting in penalties on a mishit. 

I have local courses here that are short but  narrow. 

I could hit hybrid off the tee to lay up and avoid a hazard (as fairway narrows to 25 yards at that point) 

It leaves me with a 150 yd 2nd shot. 

Is that the right play? 

If it's a wide fairway or next fairway is not blocked, I swing away normally and calculate the next fairway as part of my shot zone

[woodzie264]

7 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

Sorry the question should be rephrased. At how wide of a fairway should the driver be put away? 

And I mean width as in hazards or trees on either side resulting in penalties on a mishit. 

I have local courses here that are short but  narrow. 

I could hit hybrid off the tee to lay up and avoid a hazard (as fairway narrows to 25 yards at that point) 

It leaves me with a 150 yd 2nd shot. 

Is that the right play? 

If it's a wide fairway or next fairway is not blocked, I swing away normally and calculate the next fairway as part of my shot zone

Once again, I recommend Lowest Score Wins (LSW) - it’s an awesome book with all of this course management/shot planning info. 

[iacas]

29 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

I am here because I want to improve. I don't need to be right. I just want to get better.

Again:

Justin Rose was once asked by his coach what he wanted to work on over the off-season. Justin replied that his wedges were a weakness and he wanted to focus on them.

His coach went away and looked at the stats, and a week later, told Justin they should work on something else, as Justin was the best wedge player on the PGA Tour the previous year.

I am glad you don't want to be right, just better, but getting better often begins with understanding where you truly ARE right now. Which means good, measured stats. Hard, trusted data.

Hitting balls to inside of 30 feet would make you as good or better than most of the PGA Tour. If they average 23', they're only getting about 70% inside of 30' or so. But you're getting almost all of your shots from longer range inside of 30'?

[StuM]

@badbeatjYou might consider a shot tracker for the course to get some real world stats.  They will track your clubs and approximate distances on real courses.  There are a few out there.  I use Game Golf Classic (the oldest version) but there is also ARCOS and probably others I do not know of.  These will not give spin or ball speed data, just approximate distance for each club as well as various stats (Strokes Gained, fairways hit, GIR, number of putts, sand saves, etc.).  I think you can click on the logo on my profile and see what it has.  FYI, I do not trust the putting distances due to GPS Drift and other factors.  If looking into Game Golf you might want to read the "Is Game Golf Dead" thread since they had many issues about a year ago.  They seem to be resolved now but you should be aware.

[badbeatj]

16 hours ago, iacas said:

If you hit your 7I 175 yards, then let's say your 9I goes 145.

From 125-250, from the fairway, the PGA Tour average in 2020, is 23 feet.

Approaches from 125-150 yards | PGA TOUR Stats

---

Strokes Gained | Greens in Regulation | Accuracy from Fairway | Accuracy from...

Odds are good you're not hitting them from 145 inside of 30 feet all that regularly.

I spent a good deal of time on my Sim yesterday. 

My first 7 9 irons were within 10 yards (some even within 1-3 yards) . I then hooked one like 18 yards left. 

Are the Tour pros stats an average?

Is there a consistency measurement that goes with their average? 

I would for sure fall Within 10 yards if it was average but my consistency would be far lower (which will obviously lead to blow up holes) 

The stats where it was really interesting was on their shots 200+ yds

 

Their accuracy doesn't really go down despite the longer lengths. 

I think that's where we (recreational golfers) suffer. 

Sometimes I hit my 3 hybrid 230

Sometimes I hit it 180 when I mis hit. 

Sometimes I go left or right 25+ yards. 

Could further research show maybe this is the actual area that separates tour pros from rec and how that translates to lower scores? (along with consistency metrics?) 

If they hit their 3 hybrid consistently within 15 yards left or right 230-240 yards, that gives them much more opportunities to go up and down and save par or even birdie. 

5 hours ago, StuM said:

@badbeatjYou might consider a shot tracker for the course to get some real world stats.  They will track your clubs and approximate distances on real courses.  There are a few out there.  I use Game Golf Classic (the oldest version) but there is also ARCOS and probably others I do not know of.  These will not give spin or ball speed data, just approximate distance for each club as well as various stats (Strokes Gained, fairways hit, GIR, number of putts, sand saves, etc.).  I think you can click on the logo on my profile and see what it has.  FYI, I do not trust the putting distances due to GPS Drift and other factors.  If looking into Game Golf you might want to read the "Is Game Golf Dead" thread since they had many issues about a year ago.  They seem to be resolved now but you should be aware.

Thanks for your advice. I did read through game golf thread and saw that they resolved all the issues.

Which system is easier to use? 

I am actually looking into purchasing one. 

I will forsure forget to tap or press buttons before a shot. I think the new versions don't require that?