Out of Bounds on Par 3 With New Local Rule in Effect

[RickK]

Question...please.  This came up recently and honestly I have no clue as to the answer.

The Men's Golf Association at one of the clubs I play has the Local Rule taking stroke and distance away and you drop with the 2 stroke penalty in the edge of the fairway.  

The situation came up on a par 3.  The player hits his tee shot and believes his ball to be just over the green.  We find his ball has bounded off the back slope of the green and gone OB.  

Since the MGA has adopted the local rule, the question came up as to where does he drop and play from.  Can someone help with this please?

 

[iacas]

The LR doesn’t “ take away” S&D. That’s still an option.

[RickK]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

The LR doesn’t “ take away” S&D. That’s still an option.

But, if the player did not want to go back to the tee box (190 yard par 3), where would he drop.  Would he come back between the tee box and the green in edge of fairway?  He was probably 25 yards behind the green and 35 from the pin where the ball went OB.  

[leftybutnotPM]

22 minutes ago, RickK said:

But, if the player did not want to go back to the tee box (190 yard par 3), where would he drop.  Would he come back between the tee box and the green in edge of fairway?  He was probably 25 yards behind the green and 35 from the pin where the ball went OB.  

If he "doesn't want" to follow the rules he's free to mark himself down as having a par.

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, RickK said:

But, if the player did not want to go back to the tee box (190 yard par 3), where would he drop.  Would he come back between the tee box and the green in edge of fairway?  He was probably 25 yards behind the green and 35 from the pin where the ball went OB.  

I don’t know the layout of the hole. It’s possible he might not be in a fairway and he’d have to go back.

[Missouri Swede]

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2018/golfs-new-rules/Alternative to S%26D Model Local Rule.pdf
 

I think diagram 3 addresses your situation.

[DaveP043]

@Missouri Swede has the right diagram, for certain.  At my home course, we have a par-3 with essentially no fairway at all.  In a case like that, you might need to establish the "fairway reference point" as a spot on the tee, as described here:

Quote

If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less.

 

[RickK]

14 hours ago, leftybutnotPM said:

If he "doesn't want" to follow the rules he's free to mark himself down as having a par.

Would you care explaining to me "doesn't want to follow the rules"?  I don't understand that statement at all.

If the Local Rule is in play my question is/was where would the drop be.  Not wanting to not go back to the tee box surely isn't against the rules, if the LR is in play here.  So...please explain exactly how he would be "violating" the rules?  

And, if you see Missouri Swede's post with the diagram...he DID NOT have to go back to the tee box.  Again...he would not be violating any rules.

 

14 hours ago, iacas said:

I don’t know the layout of the hole. It’s possible he might not be in a fairway and he’d have to go back.

It was a simple uphill straight away 190 yard par 3.  He just hit too much club and OB was behind the green.  I think Missouri Swede's diagram posted explained what he could have done.  As I stated...I simply did not know myself.  Had he gone OB right or left before the green, then the assumption on my part would have been that he would drop over in the fairway just as he would on a par 4 or par 5.  But, since he was over the green...this issue came up.  

14 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2018/golfs-new-rules/Alternative to S%26D Model Local Rule.pdf
 

I think diagram 3 addresses your situation.

it does...thank you.  And maybe clears it up for someone else here who thinks he would not be playing by the rules by not going back.  

Edited November 10, 2019 by RickK

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, RickK said:

Would you care explaining to me "doesn't want to follow the rules"?  I don't understand that statement at all.

If I may, because you weren't asking me… You said if the player "did not want to go back to the tee box" which, if there are no other options, means he wouldn't want to follow the Rules.

25 minutes ago, RickK said:

If the Local Rule is in play my question is/was where would the drop be.  Not wanting to not go back to the tee box surely isn't against the rules, if the LR is in play here.  So...please explain exactly how he would be "violating" the rules?

You're reading too much into it, I think.

If there's no fairway, then even with the LR, he may not be able to find a place to drop as he may not be able to find a place that isn't a "fairway reference point." In reality, it may be a forward tee or something, but that still might involve "going back to the tee."

Some par threes have a bit of fairway. Some just have a fringe which, likely, will be too close to the hole to be no nearer the hole than the location of the ball or where it crossed the OB line.

25 minutes ago, RickK said:

And, if you see Missouri Swede's post with the diagram...he DID NOT have to go back to the tee box.  Again...he would not be violating any rules.

He might still have to. @Missouri Swede posted a graphic where there is a fairway to drop into.

Where would you drop on a par three that has no fairway and is just surrounded by rough and bunkers? The nearest area in the general area cut to fairway height or less might be a forward tee box.

25 minutes ago, RickK said:

It was a simple uphill straight away 190 yard par 3.  He just hit too much club and OB was behind the green.  I think Missouri Swede's diagram posted explained what he could have done.  As I stated...I simply did not know myself.  Had he gone OB right or left before the green, then the assumption on my part would have been that he would drop over in the fairway just as he would on a par 4 or par 5.  But, since he was over the green...this issue came up.

We can't assume a par three has a fairway, man.

[leftybutnotPM]

36 minutes ago, RickK said:

Would you care explaining to me "doesn't want to follow the rules"?  I don't understand that statement at all.

 

Iacas has kindly answered me, but I will confirm. The rules sometimes give you options, but "not wanting" to do something when there are not options that allow you not to take the viable options is not following the rules.

Ultimately, it's like saying that you "don't want" to count a penalty you incurred.

In your case, you look at the viable options and take a choice. Options that you exclude are moot because you have chosen an option that it permissable.

Otherwise, it is cheating.

[DaveP043]

On 11/10/2019 at 7:44 AM, DaveP043 said:

@Missouri Swede has the right diagram, for certain.  At my home course, we have a par-3 with essentially no fairway at all.  In a case like that, you might need to establish the "fairway reference point" as a spot on the tee, as described here:

To follow up on my previous post, here's my interpretation of a situation where there isn't any fairway on a par 3, using a hole from my home course as an example.  A "fairway reference point" can be at the nearest spot that is mowed to fairway height or less, and might be a teeing area.  The fairway reference point defines a line on the "fairway side, but isn't necessarily defining a distance form the hole.  The relief area can be no closer to the hole than where the ball is estimated to be lost, or have crossed the OB line, and between the two defining lines.

[fredf]

7 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

To follow up on my previous post, here's my interpretation of a situation where there isn't any fairway on a par 3, using a hole from my home course as an example.  A "fairway reference point" can be at the nearest spot that is mowed to fairway height or less, and might be a teeing area.  The fairway reference point defines a line on the "fairway side, but isn't necessarily defining a distance form the hole.  The relief area can be no closer to the hole than where the ball is estimated to be lost, or have crossed the OB line, and between the two defining lines.

Nice diagram, helps emphasize the point that fairway reference point is only a means to the end of defining the relief area, which may be considerably closer to the green than the fairway reference point itself. In the most extreme case, that point is the teeing area played from.