Billy Casper - Anchored Putter?

[Archie Bunker]

35 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Fast forward to the 54:20 mark on the first video (Casper vs Saunders) to see Billy explain his stroke. Anchoring or not? You be the judge.

[Rulesman]

8 hours ago, Archie Bunker said:

Fast forward to the 54:20 mark on the first video (Casper vs Saunders) to see Billy explain his stroke. Anchoring or not? You be the judge.

His forearms don't seem to move but I am certainly not convinced that they were anchored to his thighs. His forearms do not appear to be fixed to his thighs or body.

In fact I'm pretty sure his left elbow moves.

 

Edit: In the last video it seemed that Caper's right elbow was always clear of his body

Edited April 22, 2020 by Rulesman

[Rulesman]

20 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

His forearms don't seem to move but I am certainly not convinced that they were anchored to his thighs. His forearms do not appear to be fixed to his thighs or body.

In fact I'm pretty sure his left elbow moves.

 

Edit: In the last video it seemed that Caper's right elbow was always clear of his body

See his right elbow at about 10.44 in the last video

Edited April 22, 2020 by Rulesman

[JerseyThursday]

I'm confused. Here's a photo of Casper and the anchoring rules. This isn't permitted?

 

[Rulesman]

27 minutes ago, JerseyThursday said:

I'm confused. Here's a photo of Casper and the anchoring rules. This isn't permitted?

 

Those two pics don't tell us anything. Which was first? The one on the left or on the right. We also need to know where is hands, wrists and forearms are after he has struck the ball.

But the image at the end of the arrow (which is permitted) is not the same. In that image the player's hands are not touching his thigh. Do Casper's hands move towards his left when he strike the ball? Or is his forearm creating a pivot point.

[iacas]

56 minutes ago, JerseyThursday said:

I'm confused. Here's a photo of Casper and the anchoring rules. This isn't permitted?

 

We don't know if Casper's forearm was "anchored" to his thigh.

[JerseyThursday]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

We don't know if Casper's forearm was "anchored" to his thigh.

Regardless. According to the rules list on the left, it wouldn't it still be ok within the anchoring rules?

[Archie Bunker]

Only Billy would be able to tell us if he was anchoring or not. Unfortunately, he is no longer with us.  In one interview, he admitted holding his forearm against his thigh and stroking the ball with his wrists, with the back of the left wrist facing the target.

[fredf]

I did find a range of visual material of him putting, some of it excellent, entertaining golf. He absolutely was not anchoring on the long putts - it simply wasn't possible to keep the left forearm/wrist glued to his body when he needed to give it a solid smack (slower greens then too); but on the short putts the technique looked very firmly connected forearm just above wrist to thigh - is that an anchor point? I'm not entirely clear on that, because it appears nothing like any of the anchored pictures provided by the USGA. Bracing an arm against the body is permitted and there is no picture of creating an anchor with a standard hands together putting grip.

[Rulesman]

5 hours ago, fredf said:

but on the short putts the technique looked very firmly connected forearm just above wrist to thigh - is that an anchor point? 

An “anchor point” exists when the player intentionally holds a forearm in contact with any part of his body to establish a gripping hand as a stable point around which the other hand may swing the club

[fredf]

14 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

An “anchor point” exists when the player intentionally holds a forearm in contact with any part of his body to establish a gripping hand as a stable point around which the other hand may swing the club

I don't see the conditions you have named being met: the gripping (left) hand is not a stable point for Casper, it goes through a range of wrist flex motion that is continuous movement, even on short putts. And I have never seen any anchored putting approach that 'stabs' the ball in the way he does, the anchored styles are all about smooth flow with pendulum elements to the action. All the illegal actions we have been shown to date have the features of a hand or club locked against the body and Casper doesn't have that.

Sure is a dearth of rules issues lately!

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, fredf said:

I don't see the conditions you have named being met: the gripping (left) hand is not a stable point for Casper, it goes through a range of wrist flex motion that is continuous movement, even on short putts. And I have never seen any anchored putting approach that 'stabs' the ball in the way he does, the anchored styles are all about smooth flow with pendulum elements to the action. All the illegal actions we have been shown to date have the features of a hand or club locked against the body and Casper doesn't have that.

Sure is a dearth of rules issues lately!

I was not saying his grip would be illegal. But the two pictures don't show whether or not his forearm is fixed.

[fredf]

36 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

I was not saying his grip would be illegal. But the two pictures don't show whether or not his forearm is fixed.

And a fixed/locked forearm is not a breach.

[Rulesman]

On 5/1/2020 at 12:03 PM, fredf said:

And a fixed/locked forearm is not a breach.

It is according to the USGA's note 2 on the fuller version of the pictorial featured above.

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/anchoring/understanding-anchored-strokes.pdf

 

[fredf]

4 hours ago, Rulesman said:

It is according to the USGA's note 2 on the fuller version of the pictorial featured above.

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/anchoring/understanding-anchored-strokes.pdf

 

There's no need to look at that out of date reference, because all the relevant wording is contained now in Rule 10.1b (see the first two bullet points).

The point I continue to make is Casper does not have any "anchor point". Anchor point is defined in 10.1b/1 and when a player grips the club with a standard reverse overlap putting grip (hands together) it is not possible to meet that definition of anchor point. So there is no doubt - there is no "indirect" anchoring through use of an anchor point.

And the statement by @iacas that fixing a forearm to a leg is a breach is simply wrong. It meets neither of the two elements of 10.1b.

The outstanding question is whether Casper is "directly" anchoring - ie the first bullet point in 10.1b.  His left hand starts from a position in contact with the thigh and then twitches away from the thigh, pivoting somewhere around the wrist or back of hand. That is, on the short putts at least, some part of the wrist or maybe also part of the hand retains some contact with thigh while other parts of the left hand move away from the thigh.  But we have no guidance on whether this would be considered a breach by RBs - they have provided no example of a standard hands together grip producing a breach where no part of the club is in direct contact with the player's body.

[Rulesman]

The club does not need to be in direct contact with the body.

10.1b bullet 2

Indirectly, through use of an “anchor point,” by holding a forearm against any part of the body to use a gripping hand as a stable point around which the other hand may swing the club.

I don't know what Casper did as I haven't seen any video of a full putting stroke

[fredf]

4 hours ago, Rulesman said:

The club does not need to be in direct contact with the body.

10.1b bullet 2

Indirectly, through use of an “anchor point,” by holding a forearm against any part of the body to use a gripping hand as a stable point around which the other hand may swing the club.

I don't know what Casper did as I haven't seen any video of a full putting stroke

10.1b, bullet point 2, is explained carefully in 10.1b/1. Quote: For an 'anchor point' to exist, two things must happen: (1) the player must hold a forearm against the body; AND (2) THE PLAYER MUST GRIP THE CLUB SO THAT THE HANDS ARE SEPARATED AND WORK INDEPENDENTLY FROM EACH OTHER.

To repeat myself yet again, Casper used a hands together grip, so did not use an anchor point that satisfies the prohibition in the rule, as explained in 10.1b/1. So you misunderstand the rule if you try to defend the statement that 'fixing a forearm to a leg is a breach', it is not, it meets neither of the two elements of 10.1b.

[Vinsk]