Race and Inclusion in America and Beyond

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, mclaren4life said:

I disagree about it being a training issue. You see examples all the time of white offenders who have shot and killed people taken into custody without any use of force at all.

Still reeks of lack of training. You can't be comfortable with a situation unless you train for it. Someone who pulls their gun in this situation clearly lacks the experience to make the correct decision. 

4 minutes ago, mclaren4life said:

I will say that a part of the problem is there are a lot of calls police answer that they have no business dealing with and don’t have the training to deal with. That’s an entire different subject.

I agree. 

 

[mclaren4life]

George Floyd wasn’t shot. Eric Garner wasn’t shot. So the same police that didn’t react with force when armed white people protested outside their capital lost that training when it came to George? Or were those cops off that day when he got murdered? How about the other 3 officers that did absolutely nothing to stop their co defendant? None had training. If the police treated everybody like they would want their child or spouse to be treated all of this would go away. That has zero to do with training. 

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, mclaren4life said:

George Floyd wasn’t shot. Eric Garner wasn’t shot. So the same police that didn’t react with force when armed white people protested outside their capital lost that training when it came to George?

No, the police knew George and probably did this premeditated. This case is unique in that regard. There are videos of police using that choke hold / maneuver on white people as well, with deadly consequences. By all regards, the policeman who used this choke hold did so with violation of written regulation on when it should be used. If they were even properly trained on when to use it. I feel like cops are given a patchwork of techniques that they hardly practice when to and how to use it. 

2 minutes ago, mclaren4life said:

How about the other 3 officers that did absolutely nothing to stop their co defendant?

Two of the cops were brand new to the force and were with a person who has been a policeman for over 10 years. Sorry to say, it probably would be career suicide to stand up to a cop with that many more years of service. It's not the right thing to do, but it's a very human thing that happens.   Especially when you hear stories about how police department culture can be. They would be branded snitches. Their lives would be hell for their career.

Don't get me wrong, I wish they had the courage to stand up to policeman using the choke hold on George. I can understand their position and they're apprehension to not stepping in.

Now, the third cop, who stood by and actually try to stop people from filming, should be hit with higher chargers than the two new police officers. 

5 minutes ago, mclaren4life said:

None had training.

It should be training. It should be training that new police should know they can stand up and report on incidents like these. 

6 minutes ago, mclaren4life said:

If the police treated everybody like they would want their child or spouse to be treated all of this would go away. That has zero to do with training. 

I get you want people to magically have this thought, "Just treat them like family." But, that is a pipe dream that will never come true. Humans will forever treat people they don't know not as family. Still, you can treat someone with dignity and respect and still care for you family more. 

 

[mclaren4life]

So is it training to deal with POC or all people because they don’t kill white people as often as they do POC. Or do the white police officers know every single white person in the area they police so they some how don’t end up killing them? 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, mclaren4life said:

So is it training to deal with POC or all people because they don’t kill white people as often as they do POC. Or do the white police officers know every single white person in the area they police so they some how don’t end up killing them? 

Let's be clear about something: white people are killed by police officers, too:

• People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2020 | Statista

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Sadly, the trend of fatal police shootings in the United States seems to only be increasing, with a total 506 civilians having been shot, 105 of whom were Black, as of June 30, 2020.

That's not what this is about, because things can be seen (and often are) disproportionate. Which you hint at, but somewhat poorly IMO.

I think training can be important. Let's train police officers to de-escalate instead of escalating. To realize when a suspect is rendered unable to resist and to get up off his neck. To let junior officers do what is right without the macho bullshit culture. Things like that can all be trained.

[ncates00]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

No, the police knew George and probably did this premeditated. This case is unique in that regard. There are videos of police using that choke hold / maneuver on white people as well, with deadly consequences. By all regards, the policeman who used this choke hold did so with violation of written regulation on when it should be used. If they were even properly trained on when to use it. I feel like cops are given a patchwork of techniques that they hardly practice when to and how to use it. 

Two of the cops were brand new to the force and were with a person who has been a policeman for over 10 years. Sorry to say, it probably would be career suicide to stand up to a cop with that many more years of service. It's not the right thing to do, but it's a very human thing that happens.   Especially when you hear stories about how police department culture can be. They would be branded snitches. Their lives would be hell for their career.

Don't get me wrong, I wish they had the courage to stand up to policeman using the choke hold on George. I can understand their position and they're apprehension to not stepping in.

Now, the third cop, who stood by and actually try to stop people from filming, should be hit with higher chargers than the two new police officers. 

It should be training. It should be training that new police should know they can stand up and report on incidents like these. 

I get you want people to magically have this thought, "Just treat them like family." But, that is a pipe dream that will never come true. Humans will forever treat people they don't know not as family. Still, you can treat someone with dignity and respect and still care for you family more. 

 

I agree; however, proper chokes can be accomplished.  Practicing BJJ folks do them often.  This goes back to your training argument.  Nonetheless, obviously we'd like to see it not have to get to that point to begin with--de-escalation techniques.

[iacas]

What Golf's Race Problem Looks Like From the Inside - Sports Illustrated

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The PGA of America hired Wendell Haskins to make golf "a game for all." He never had a chance.

Also, I re-titled the topic.

[iacas]

How the Police Killed Breonna Taylor - The New York Times

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None of the police officers who raided Breonna Taylor’s home wore body cameras, impeding the public from a full understanding of what happened. The Times’s visual investigation team built a 3-D model of...

It's an 18-minute video I'd encourage people to watch.

[ncates00]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

How the Police Killed Breonna Taylor - The New York Times

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None of the police officers who raided Breonna Taylor’s home wore body cameras...

It's an 18-minute video I'd encourage people to watch.

If the recreation is accurate, then that’s very sad. However, it’s difficult to pierce the police’s qualified immunity. The case didn’t even make it past the grand jury to even consider that point.  Moreover, prosecutors have a lot of discretion.
 

It’s a tough situation with no clear answers unfortunately. 

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

The case didn’t even make it past the grand jury…

Sure, but why?

It's the NYT, and though they'll slant one direction politically, this felt pretty reasonably accurate. One shot was fired versus 32, ten of them without any sort of clear target and without any return fire of any sort? (Granted, the ten shots fired by the other guy didn't hit anyone, but they entered other apartments and he could have killed the sister, the nephew or whatever the other kid was, etc.).

So why didn't it make it past the grand jury? Do we as a society generally do too much to "protect" the police and pierce their immunity shield?

I think we often do. I think we often assume that police are infallible or something.

I think it's damning when 12 people say the police didn't identify themselves, to the point that they didn't even know that police were there.

[ncates00]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

Sure, but why?

Because the grand jury did not choose to indict.

 

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

So why didn't it make it past the grand jury?

I answered above.

 

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

Do we as a society generally do too much to "protect" the police and pierce their immunity shield?

Maybe, but what does qualified immunity have to do with this case?  As stated, the case didn't even make it past the grand jury hearing, so the discussion of immunity is moot.

 

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think we often do.

Perhaps.  There are good arguments on both sides, but I tend to agree with you.

 

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think we often assume that police are infallible or something.

That's not the reason for qualified immunity.  Read some law review articles on the pros and cons and rationale of the immunity doctrine.  

 

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think it's damning when 12 people say the police didn't identify themselves

Since when is following the law "damning?"  Prior to this case, "no knock" warrants were legal police procedure in KY.  Nonetheless, even this NYT video indicates that despite the legality of no knock warrants, the police did identify themselves.

Edited December 29, 2020 by ncates00

[mclaren4life]

Actually the police said they identified themselves. The video is just telling what they said. Also they were supposed to be serving a knock and announce. 

[ncates00]

4 minutes ago, mclaren4life said:

they were supposed to be serving a knock and announce. 

First, if you want to discuss reply to someone, please use the @ to tag a person or quote them.

False.  No knock warrants were valid under KY law prior to this case and the subsequent new law banning no knock warrants.

Moreover, no knock warrants, like all warrants, must be obtained from a judge.

Edited December 29, 2020 by ncates00

[mclaren4life]

I dont need you to tell me how to post. Never commented on the legality of no knocks. 

[ncates00]

1 minute ago, mclaren4life said:

Never commented on the legality of no knocks. 

 

8 minutes ago, mclaren4life said:

Also they were supposed to be serving a knock and announce. 

Then why say this?  🤦‍♂️

4 minutes ago, mclaren4life said:

I dont need you to tell me how to post.

Apparently you do because 178 posts in on this forum, and you have forgotten how to use the @ symbol.  🙂 

[mclaren4life]

19 minutes ago, ncates00 said: 

Since when is following the law "damning?"  Prior to this case, "no knock" warrants were legal police procedure in KY.  Nonetheless, even this NYT video indicates that despite the legality of no knock warrants, the police did identify themselves.

I posted because you took a stance that the 12 witnesses were incorrect because they were legally allowed to serve a no knock which is not what they were supposed to be doing. Make sense now?

[ncates00]

Just now, mclaren4life said:

I posted because you took a stance that the 12 witnesses were incorrect because they were legally allowed to serve a no knock which is not what they were supposed to be doing. Make sense now?

No it doesn’t make sense. Who cares what the witnesses say if the law holds that no knock warrants are legally permissible. The whole point about what the witnesses say does not matter one iota in this case. However, because of Breonna’s Law, which bans no knock warrants moving forward, in future cases such testimony would matter. Both you and Erik are discussing a point that does not matter in this case; that’s why I called you both out on it. 

[mclaren4life]

I didnt forget just didnt use it. Dont believe there is anything requiring me to use it. What they say matters because once again, THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE SERVING A KNOCK AND ANNOUNCE. That means they knock on the door then announce who they are. So maybe instead of calling people out you actually take a second to read peoples posts and try and understand as opposed to instructing me how to post.