Where Can You Drop?

[gbogey]

This hasn't happened yet but it occurred to me last night that it could happen.  On #7, par 3, it's not unusual to miss long left (seems safer).  If you do, it's downhill hard pan and the ball likely runs into a creek that runs behind the green (highlighted in yellow).  From there, what are the drop options:

1. Most players drop at #1 where the ball crossed the hazard.  Problem is that the lies are often difficult and you are pitching to an uphill green that runs downhill towards the water.  Very difficult shot.  
2. It occurred to me last night that if you crossed the creek away from the green, there would be better suitable lies around the 9th green with a good view of the flag.  Might be an easier shot.  Is #2 an option?
3. Finally, #3 is where players would drop after hitting a ball short into the water.  If you knew you were in the hazard long could you drop there providing you were no nearer to the hole (you typically wouldn't be). Is #3 an option?

 

 

[Bonvivant]

19 minutes ago, gbogey said:

This hasn't happened yet but it occurred to me last night that it could happen.  On #7, par 3, it's not unusual to miss long left (seems safer).  If you do, it's downhill hard pan and the ball likely runs into a creek that runs behind the green (highlighted in yellow).  From there, what are the drop options:

1. Most players drop at #1 where the ball crossed the hazard.  Problem is that the lies are often difficult and you are pitching to an uphill green that runs downhill towards the water.  Very difficult shot.  
2. It occurred to me last night that if you crossed the creek away from the green, there would be better suitable lies around the 9th green with a good view of the flag.  Might be an easier shot.  Is #2 an option?
3. Finally, #3 is where players would drop after hitting a ball short into the water.  If you knew you were in the hazard long could you drop there providing you were no nearer to the hole (you typically wouldn't be). Is #3 an option?

 

 

Are there stakes near the creek? To me it looks like 2 is what you are supposed to do. It looks like one is an illegal option, because you would always be putting yourself closer to the hole unless the pin is in the front of the green and you can take 2 club lengths and still have a stance and not be nearer to the hole.

[gbogey]

The course isn't well marked for hazards - its a muni - but I'm comfortable that #1 is an option.  #2 was an option under the old rules, not sure about the new rules.  #3 - IDK - if you followed a straight line from the hazard along the flag you eventually get there and are further from the hole. Of course, there's always #4 - go back to the tee.

[DaveP043]

I'd say #1 is an option, as long as there's a spot within 2 Clublength of the Reference Point (where the ball crosses the boundary) that isn't closer to the hole.  #2 is also an option, keeping the Reference Point essentially between you and the hole.  But #3 isn't an acceptable option, as I understand the hole.  Your third option is to go back to the tee and replay the shot.

The rules really haven't changed much, the basic options for hazards (Penalty Areas) are essentially the same.  The new terminology (Reference Point, Relief Area, etc) kind of unifies all drop procedures.

[klineka]

2 minutes ago, gbogey said:

The course isn't well marked for hazards - its a muni - but I'm comfortable that #1 is an option.  #2 was an option under the old rules, not sure about the new rules.  #3 - IDK - if you followed a straight line from the hazard along the flag you eventually get there and are further from the hole. Of course, there's always #4 - go back to the tee.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the only way #3 be an option if you hit it in the yellow shaded area is if the penalty area was yellow staked? If it says on the scorecard to treat it as red staked area then I dont think that option #3 would work? 

16 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

To me it looks like 2 is what you are supposed to do. 

I don't think that's an option

Also, it seems like this should be the miss IMO, not long

 

[gbogey]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

#2 is also an option, keeping the Reference Point essentially between you and the hole.

I thought that this might have gone away as part of the rules changing.  If not, this is good to know.

59 minutes ago, klineka said:

 

Also, it seems like this should be the miss IMO, not long

The picture doesn't do it justice.  A small part of your circle is safe, but most of it slopes away from the sharply from the green.  As I mentioned, the ground is hard there so the ball really runs and lies aren't pleasant.  Even if it stops short of the creek, it's a tough pitch to get on the green safely since the pitch is uphill over the ridge and then the green runs towards the water pretty fast.  Four is a really good score from down there.

The right play is to always go for the front fat part of the green.  Really not a difficult shot, probably an 9i or 8i at most.  If pin is up, good birdie chance.  Middle pin, should be easy two putt.  Back pin is a very long two putt but taking four this way is better than chasing the back pin.  I see way too may guys go after the back or middle pin - of course they think left is better than right - but there's still a lot of trouble left and often that puts five and six into play.  Me, last night I just shut the club face and went long left which is one of my misses - ball hit the down slope and made the creek.

[klineka]

1 minute ago, gbogey said:

I thought that this might have gone away as part of the rules changing.

I'm pretty sure it did go away unless they took it away in 2019 and brought it back already, I posted a graphic of it earlier. 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/elimination-of-opposite-side-relief-for-red-pen.html

 

[gbogey]

I'll ask @DaveP043 to weigh in - you aren't really going to the far side of the hazard as much as going back in a straight line.  That may be the difference.

[klineka]

5 minutes ago, gbogey said:

I'll ask @DaveP043 to weigh in - you aren't really going to the far side of the hazard as much as going back in a straight line.  That may be the difference.

Does the creek run all the way through connecting the two ponds? If the creek was marked as a lateral like I drew then I don't think option 2 would be allowed, but maybe it is an option if the creek is not marked?

What is the name of the golf course?

[gbogey]

Yes, I believe the ponds are connected by the creek. The course is The Links at Galloway. #7. 

[DaveP043]

3 hours ago, klineka said:

Does the creek run all the way through connecting the two ponds? If the creek was marked as a lateral like I drew then I don't think option 2 would be allowed, but maybe it is an option if the creek is not marked?

What is the name of the golf course?

I'm not saying this is "opposite side" relief, which WAS eliminated in the new rules, this is the standard relief, keeping the Reference Point between you and the hole.  This available for yellow PAs as well as for red.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The rules really haven't changed much, the basic options for hazards (Penalty Areas) are essentially the same.  The new terminology (Reference Point, Relief Area, etc) kind of unifies all drop procedures.

Except the elimination of the opposite-margin drop for red areas, yeah.

4 hours ago, gbogey said:

I thought that this might have gone away as part of the rules changing.  If not, this is good to know.

As others said, it's the "back on a line" option. The "opposite margin of the red area" is mostly eliminated.

[fredf]

That USGA diagram is a really poor choice to show what they want to show - that opposite side relief no longer applies unless specified in a Local Rule (we have it on two of our eight holes that are water affected). It's poor because on the ball's position it is possible to go to the opposite side for relief while following the BOL relief option - just as in the OP here. That's going to confuse many that weren't already full bottle on what opposite side relief is exactly.

[Bonvivant]

So with the new rule on red staked areas, what do you do on this hole? If you are a righty that slices, do you take the drop on the other side of the hazard from the hole, and the opposite if you draw it?

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, Bonvivant said:

So with the new rule on red staked areas, what do you do on this hole? If you are a righty that slices, do you take the drop on the other side of the hazard from the hole, and the opposite if you draw it?

If you want to use the "lateral relief option" (Rule17.1.d(3)), and the "opposite side relief" is not in place by local rule, your Reference Point is where the ball entered the Penalty Area.  So yes.

 

[klineka]

13 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm not saying this is "opposite side" relief, which WAS eliminated in the new rules, this is the standard relief, keeping the Reference Point between you and the hole.  This available for yellow PAs as well as for red.

12 hours ago, iacas said:

As others said, it's the "back on a line" option. The "opposite margin of the red area" is mostly eliminated.

10 hours ago, fredf said:

It's poor because on the ball's position it is possible to go to the opposite side for relief while following the BOL relief option - just as in the OP here. That's going to confuse many that weren't already full bottle on what opposite side relief is exactly.

So if I'm understanding this right, back on a line option is allowed even if it takes you on the other side of the penalty area (#2 on the graphic below), which is different than "opposite side" of the penalty area (Approximately the red X on graphic below)?

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, klineka said:

So if I'm understanding this right, back on a line option is allowed even if it takes you on the other side of the penalty area (#2 on the graphic below), which is different than "opposite side" of the penalty area (Approximately the red X on graphic below)?

Yeah, that was my interpretation of the satellite photo in the original post.  Because of the angle, the "back on the line" spot appears to be opposite from where the ball entered the hazard.  But if you think about taking "opposite side" relief, that is a spot at the same distance from the hole  as where the ball entered the hazard. (Local Rule B-2.1)  In the OP, location 2 is substantially further, so wouldn't really qualify as "opposite side relief".

[fredf]

13 minutes ago, klineka said:

So if I'm understanding this right, back on a line option is allowed even if it takes you on the other side of the penalty area (#2 on the graphic below), which is different than "opposite side" of the penalty area (Approximately the red X on graphic below)?

Yes. And the red X would need to be the same distance from the pin as the X for opposite side relief (if in place through local rule).

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

So with the new rule on red staked areas, what do you do on this hole? If you are a righty that slices, do you take the drop on the other side of the hazard from the hole, and the opposite if you draw it?

You complicate things by talking about whether you slice or hook, lateral and BOL relief is solely a function of where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area.