Fair but Speedy Tournament Play

[Southern by Choice]

I’m President of a Women's Golf League and am planning our upcoming League Championship.  I want to keep things fair while avoiding a 5-hour round.  CAN WE SET A MAXIMUM NUMBER OF STROKES PER HOLE AND STILL BE FAIR TO ALL PLAYERS?

—There will be both NET and GROSS winners.

—We currently set max strokes/hole at net double bogey for regular League play.

—Our members can play to a maximum 38 course handicap.  We have a handful of players with HI's in the 'teens; most are mid-to-high 20s, some are in the 30s, but there’s clearly a wide range of abilities.

—The lower handicappers think net bogey max favors the HIGH handicappers, since they can pick up and record a score of 9 on a par 5...when they might actually have needed more strokes to actually hole out.

 

I think it is painful and slow to have to hole everything out when a player is struggling with their 12th or 13th stroke...and it happens, of course.  While this is a competitive league, we are also supposed to enjoy ourselves—something unlikely to happen after a 5-hour round in 95-degree weather.
 

I believe the better players will win the gross rounds, and that picking up after net double bogey will not appreciably affect results for net winners.   What say you?

[Maroon88]

At our local tournaments we have double-par max per hole.

Max 6 on par 3, 8 on par 4, 10 on par 5. Double par is rare, even for high Hcp players.

If the lower handicappers are concerned it gives higher Hcp players an advantage, why not have 2 flights (or more).

[Bonvivant]

On 8/25/2021 at 6:47 PM, Maroon88 said:

Max 6 on par 3, 8 on par 4, 10 on par 5. Double par is rare, even for high Hcp players.

I am not sure what high handicapers you have been playing with, but I've seen an 11 hdcp player card a 7 on a par 3 and a 9 on a par 4 fairly easily. All it takes is an OB tee shot to put even a scratch golfer at double bogey, pair that with a duff and a 3 putt and you've got double par on a par 4. Heck, pros even have this happen sometimes.

On 9/15/2020 at 8:29 PM, Southern by Choice said:

I believe the better players will win the gross rounds, and that picking up after net double bogey will not appreciably affect results for net winners.   What say you?

I say that it could, and here is why.

E.g.

A 30 handicap player gets to hdcp hole 1 (lets say its a par 4), and they send 2 OB off the tee. They don't even bother playing after that because they can't make better than net DB. Their competitor is an 18 handicap, and they also stink it up on this hole, knocking their first OB, then finding tree trouble. They punch out for their 4th, and play a really good shot on for their 5th, but it doesn't go in the hole, so they have a putt for their net +1. It lips out and they tap in (or pick up the gimmie range putt) for their net DB

We get to hdcp hole 15, a reasonably easy short par 4. The 30 handicap scores a rare par on this hole for a -2 net, and sits net even through these 2 holes. The 18 handicap also pars for a net -1, and sits net +1 through these 2 holes.

This seems pretty even, but had they played hdcp hole 1 all the way out, it was likely that the 30 handicap player would have been in the double digits on this hole, scoring net +4 or worse, but the 18 handicap player made net DB playing out the entire hole.

I play with a handful of high handicap players (25-30ish but they don't actually keep it), and they are usually good for at least 2 blow-ups per 18 hole round. We play decently fast even when they finish out these holes. Now it obviously isn't tournament golf, or even particularly competitive, but they are trying their hardest and concentrating as much as they can.

I feel like the slow play comes from people not being ready, or taking an exceptionally long time on the green. When someone doesn't even put their glove on when they get to their ball (in preparation of their turn), or spends exceedingly long with their range finder, or double plumb-bobs a putt, those are the things that eat up time. These players will do this on every shot, so I get where you are coming from with wanting to limit it.

You won't ever make 100% of the players happy, but as a leader you have the decision to make. Have you polled all players? This might help in making your decision.

If it were me, and I had enough players agreeing that their should be a stroke cap, I would put it at a flat 10 on every hole for every handicap. That way the big numbers still play, it could potentially hurt one of your lower handicap players in the league so they have to be on their game, and the rounds don't take quite as long as they may have if it was "finish every hole".

 

[StuM]

 If the HC were calculated based on the net double over the course of the season for all players it should be baked in for all players and should not be an issue. however, if the HC was not calculated using net double limit it would benefit the high HC since you are artificially lowering their gross by a couple of strokes.

Edited August 27, 2021 by StuM

[Southern by Choice]

"A 30 handicap player gets to hdcp hole 1 (lets say its a par 4), and they send 2 OB off the tee. They don't even bother playing after that because they can't make better than net DB. Their competitor is an 18 handicap, and they also stink it up on this hole, knocking their first OB, then finding tree trouble. They punch out for their 4th, and play a really good shot on for their 5th, but it doesn't go in the hole, so they have a putt for their net +1. It lips out and they tap in (or pick up the gimmie range putt) for their net DB

We get to hdcp hole 15, a reasonably easy short par 4. The 30 handicap scores a rare par on this hole for a -2 net, and sits net even through these 2 holes. The 18 handicap also pars for a net -1, and sits net +1 throughthese 2 holes."

 

I'm so glad to see a response to this topic!  Thanks for taking the time to reply.  
 

A correction to the above scenario:  On the 15th handicapped hole, your hacker gets only ONE stroke, not 2.  (One stroke for all 18 holes and two strokes for the twelve hardest holes.  Since this is the 15th hardest hole, she only gets 1 stroke.) Both players card the same scores for both holes, given our max rules:  8 and 4.  12 gross for both players, less 2 or 3 strokes respectively.  The net outcome is 10 vs. 9, and our high handicapper has the NET advantage, just as you said.  
 

However, remember our league pays both NET and GROSS winners.  And while  a blowup hole is certainly possible, I know very few 18-handicappers who shoot QUAD BOGIES with any regularity; if they did, their HI would be much higher! And so, over time, the better players do win the LOW GROSS prizes while the weaker players battle it out for NET money.

⛳️⛳️

[Bonvivant]

39 minutes ago, StuM said:

 If the HC were calculated based on the net double over the course of the season for all players it should be baked in for all players and should not be an issue. however, if the HC was not calculated using net double limit it would benefit the high HC since you are artificially lowering their gross by a couple of strokes.

Net double is now the way that HC is calculated, but that doesn't mean that it is fair for a tournament. Handicaps are supposed to skew towards the good (lower) side. Things like the soft cap, hard cap, and net double rules are in place so that your cap doesn't go crazy (upwards) because you had a couple of bad rounds, or a couple of bad holes.

A tournament is different. Generally it is to find the best player(s) during a set number of holes. A couple of bad holes should put you out of contention, or require a lot of really good holes to make up for it, IMO.

[Southern by Choice]

46 minutes ago, StuM said:

 If the HC were calculated based on the net double over the course of the season for all players it should be baked in for all players and should not be an issue. however, if the HC was not calculated using net double limit it would benefit the high HC.

I’m not sure I understand.  Because the WHS automatically adjusts posted scores to reflect NET DOUBLE BOGEY, the handicap is "baked in."  Did I misunderstand?

[Bonvivant]

Just now, Southern by Choice said:

I know very few 18-handicappers who shoot QUAD BOGIES with any regularity; if they did, their HI would be much higher!

You forget that net double bogey is used to calculate hdcp, so any +4 an 18 cap player makes will turn into a +3 when entered into the handicap system. I bet you know plenty of 18s that make triple on occasion.

My point is that the net tournament result should be decided by the player that played the best against their cap, and all strokes should be included to do this.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

You forget that net double bogey is used to calculate hdcp, so any +4 an 18 cap player makes will turn into a +3 when entered into the handicap system.

IF they enter hole-by-hole scores.

If they just enter "97" then it goes in as 97.

[Bonvivant]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

IF they enter hole-by-hole scores.

If they just enter "97" then it goes in as 97.

Thanks for the correction. I was just thinking about editing that, but you've beat me to it. Also, is this legal to do? Shouldn't the player correct these before putting in a total score?

Edited August 27, 2021 by Bonvivant

[Southern by Choice]

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

I feel like the slow play comes from people not being ready, or taking an exceptionally long time on the green. When someone doesn't even put their glove on when they get to their ball (in preparation of their turn), or spends exceedingly long with their range finder, or double plumb-bobs a putt, those are the things that eat up time. These players will do this on every shot, so I get where you are coming from with wanting to limit it.

You won't ever make 100% of the players happy, but as a leader you have the decision to make. Have you polled all players? This might help in making your decision.

I absolutely agree with your comments about the causes of slow play!

 

I kept stats for a year, noting winners and pay-outs in order to convince our members of the truth of what I said.  Some still weren’t happy:  "I'M A BETTER PLAYER AND IT'S ONLY RIGHT THAT I SHOULD WIN MORE MONEY!"  The whole "that’s why we have handicaps" argument was lost on them, and I think they will be happier playing in SCRATCH competition only.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Thanks for the correction. I was just thinking about editing that, but you've beat me to it. Also, is this legal to do? Shouldn't the player correct these before putting in a total score?

No, it's not "legal" to do, but a lot of people are dumb and don't know they're supposed to adjust to net double bogey. They shot 97 so they enter 97 even if it should have been a 94.

That said rounds where you have net doubles capping scores rarely are one of the 8 counting scores.

So it doesn't affect one's index much.

[Bonvivant]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, it's not "legal" to do, but a lot of people are dumb and don't know they're supposed to adjust to net double bogey. They shot 97 so they enter 97 even if it should have been a 94.

That is what I thought.

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

That said rounds where you have net doubles capping scores rarely are one of the 8 counting scores.

I'd imagine the higher hdcp the player, the more frequent this becomes though, and with the OP's situation it seems more likely. I guess that kind of is a built in safe guard in the higher handicap range so that they can't balloon too high.

[StuM]

12 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

You forget that net double bogey is used to calculate hdcp, so any +4 an 18 cap player makes will turn into a +3 when entered into the handicap system. I bet you know plenty of 18s that make triple on occasion.

I forgot that but not sure if it changes my thought. As @iacassaid if they do not enter hole-by-hole if will be overlooked and a pure guess is a high capper is less likely to know to adjust for net double.  Personally, I just enter hole-by-hold and do not think about it,

[Southern by Choice]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

That said rounds where you have net doubles capping scores rarely are one of the 8 counting scores.

So it doesn't affect one's index much.

Au contraire!  Even my "better scores" are sprinkled with net double bogeys…although I’m kinda embarrassed to admit it.  A 7 or 8 on a par 4 is pretty common for me, even in my "top 8" scores that count.

[Bonvivant]

7 minutes ago, Southern by Choice said:

I kept stats for a year, noting winners and pay-outs in order to convince our members of the truth of what I said.  Some still weren’t happy:  "I'M A BETTER PLAYER AND IT'S ONLY RIGHT THAT I SHOULD WIN MORE MONEY!"  The whole "that’s why we have handicaps" argument was lost on them, and I think they will be happier playing in SCRATCH competition only.

The lower cap players will almost always fight for less of a handicap (especially in tournaments), and the higher for more of a handicap. This was always the case in ten-pin bowling when I played as well. The organizer of the league/tournament ultimately makes the rules, and like I said earlier, you can't make everyone happy.

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, Southern by Choice said:

Au contraire!  Even my "better scores" are sprinkled with net double bogeys…although I’m kinda embarrassed to admit it.  A 7 or 8 on a par 4 is pretty common for me, even in my "top 8" scores that count.

I'm just telling you what the whole data set says, not your one example.

Final scores with one or more downward adjusted "net double bogeys" account for a single digit percentage of scores that count toward handicap indices.

[Bonvivant]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Final scores with one or more downward adjusted "net double bogeys" account for a single digit percentage of scores that count toward handicap indices.

Well if there are 8 scores counted, one of those is 12.5%, so the fact that its a single digit number doesn't really say as much as it sounds. Maybe a third of golfers have one of these downward adjusted rounds in their 8? And I would imagine that in that 1/3 that almost all are above 20 handicap, which is the group the OP has.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Bonvivant