Embedded on the Fringe?

[cuibono79]

3 part embedded ball question.  This was my tee shot into a par 3 today. Hopefully the photo shows what happened—the ball plugged hard right against the edge of the green. 
 

First, is this ball on the green or on the fringe? If it’s on the fringe, is it embedded? If so, would I have been entitled to relief?

 

Thanks in advance!

[iacas]

Green, and you get relief anywhere in the general area.

[Club Rat]

Embedded ball relief is when a ball is embedded in closely mown areas through the green.
Areas which are closely mown are tees, fairways, first cut of green collars and the green.

When a ball is embedded anywhere else on the course, your options are play it as it lies, 
or declare it as unplayable.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Club Rat said:

Embedded ball relief is when a ball is embedded in closely mown areas through the green.

This isn't correct, John. It's anywhere in the general area, as I said above.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=16&subrulenum=3

Quote

(1) Ball Must Be Embedded in General Area. Relief is allowed under Rule 16.3bonly when a player’s ball is embedded in the general area.

2019 Rules changed this.

[Rulesman]

On 9/26/2020 at 3:51 AM, iacas said:

 

2019 Rules changed this.

Re the original question; the definition previously said a ball touching the green is on the green. Where has that statement been moved to? I can't find it.

[Club Rat]

On 9/25/2020 at 9:51 PM, iacas said:

2019 Rules changed this.

Thanks Erik, I missed that change in 2019.
I have always favored a change from closely mown areas to allow relief in other areas.
Most course irrigation systems run on preset timers regardless if it's raining or after a heavy rainfall.
 

 

IMO, a player should have been entitled to relief due to water saturation from rainfall or sprinkler systems in areas
which were almost to the point of being casual water on the course.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Re the original question; the definition previously said a ball touching the green is on the green. Where has that statement been moved to? I can't find it.

Areas of the course. Rule 2.

Quote

A ball is always treated as lying in only one area of the course:
    •    If part of the ball is in both the general area and one of the four specific areas of the course, it is treated as lying in that specific area of the course.

 

[David in FL]

4 hours ago, Rulesman said:Re the original question; the definition previously said a ball touching the green is on the green. Where has that statement been moved to? I can't find it.

He was referring to the change that allows for relief for an embedded ball anywhere in the General Area.  Not whether or not the ball is on the green...

[Rulesman]

22 hours ago, David in FL said:

He was referring to the change that allows for relief for an embedded ball anywhere in the General Area.  Not whether or not the ball is on the green...

First question on original post.

Quote

First, is this ball on the green or on the fringe?

---

 

On 9/27/2020 at 7:19 AM, iacas said:

Areas of the course. Rule 2.

 

Doh 😳 Of course. Where else would it be. ???

Thanks

[fredf]

6 hours ago, Rulesman said:

First question on original post.

---

 

Doh 😳 Of course. Where else would it be. ???

Thanks

Sorry to be splitting hairs. The specific correct reference is 13.1a: "A ball is on the putting green when any part of the ball: touches the putting green.."

Rule 2 is picking up broader context, including the general approach on how to treat a ball in more than one area of the course. 

And as the ball is on the putting green, the player does not have an entitlement to 'embedded' ball relief, but can mark the ball and repair the damage, then must replace the ball in the precise same spot.

[Rulesman]

13.1a does point to the specific issue in the picture ie 2.2c

If part of the ball is both on the putting green and in another area of the course, see Rule 2.2c.

[fredf]

11 hours ago, Rulesman said:

13.1a does point to the specific issue in the picture ie 2.2c

If part of the ball is both on the putting green and in another area of the course, see Rule 2.2c.

Your question was: " the definition previously said a ball touching the green is on the green. Where has that statement been moved to? I can't find it." The answer is Rule 13.1a.

[iacas]

8 hours ago, fredf said:

Your question was: " the definition previously said a ball touching the green is on the green. Where has that statement been moved to? I can't find it." The answer is Rule 13.1a.

And 13.1a refers back to 2.2, as I noted.

Quote

If part of the ball is both on the putting green and in another area of the course, see Rule 2.2c.

Either one gives the correct answer.

[fredf]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

And 13.1a refers back to 2.2, as I noted.

Either one gives the correct answer.

Agree, both of those rules get you to the correct answer to the situation in the OP but they both do not answer Rulesman's question. He asked where is the statement that a ball touching the green is on the green and there is only one rule (13.1a) that makes that statement.

Rule 2.2c does not say a ball touching the green is on the green. On the contrary, it provides a formula that explains when a ball touching the green is on the green and when a ball touching the green is NOT on the green.

 

 

 

[iacas]

I disagree. 2.2 also addresses the situation.

[fredf]

41 minutes ago, iacas said:

I disagree. 2.2 also addresses the situation.

Yes, 2.2 addresses the OP. But 2.2 does not answer Rulesman's question where in the rules does it say "a ball touching the green is on the green".

Interestingly, this 'which rule' dimension exemplifies a significant difference between Rules exams prepared on either side of the ditch. In my experience, the USGA does not grill their exam takers on Rule numbers for specific issues. The R&A invariably does and that exercise can become extremely hairy. This is one reason why the USGA exams are fairer, IMO.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, fredf said:

Yes, 2.2 addresses the OP. But 2.2 does not answer Rulesman's question where in the rules does it say "a ball touching the green is on the green".

Again, though it won't say exactly what you typed in quotes, it says that a ball touching the general area and another area of the course is in that other area of the course. That includes the putting green, and is the "correct" answer here, and even Rule 13.1 says "If part of the ball is both on the putting green and in another area of the course, see Rule 2.2c."

Using either rule, you can arrive at the right answer, as even 13.1 refers you to 2.2.