Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
Note: This thread is 1914 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Posted

3 part embedded ball question.  This was my tee shot into a par 3 today. Hopefully the photo shows what happened—the ball plugged hard right against the edge of the green. 
 

First, is this ball on the green or on the fringe? If it’s on the fringe, is it embedded? If so, would I have been entitled to relief?

 

Thanks in advance!

F5A8D077-77AE-45CE-9456-F7F8C6DE3FB0.jpeg


  • Administrator
Posted

Green, and you get relief anywhere in the general area.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Embedded ball relief is when a ball is embedded in closely mown areas through the green.
Areas which are closely mown are tees, fairways, first cut of green collars and the green.

When a ball is embedded anywhere else on the course, your options are play it as it lies, 
or declare it as unplayable.

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Posted
2 hours ago, Club Rat said:

Embedded ball relief is when a ball is embedded in closely mown areas through the green.

This isn't correct, John. It's anywhere in the general area, as I said above.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=16&subrulenum=3

Quote

(1) Ball Must Be Embedded in General Area. Relief is allowed under Rule 16.3bonly when a player’s ball is embedded in the general area.

2019 Rules changed this.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
On 9/26/2020 at 3:51 AM, iacas said:

 

2019 Rules changed this.

Re the original question; the definition previously said a ball touching the green is on the green. Where has that statement been moved to? I can't find it.


Posted
On 9/25/2020 at 9:51 PM, iacas said:

2019 Rules changed this.

Thanks Erik, I missed that change in 2019.
I have always favored a change from closely mown areas to allow relief in other areas.
Most course irrigation systems run on preset timers regardless if it's raining or after a heavy rainfall.
 

 

IMO, a player should have been entitled to relief due to water saturation from rainfall or sprinkler systems in areas
which were almost to the point of being casual water on the course.

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Posted
2 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Re the original question; the definition previously said a ball touching the green is on the green. Where has that statement been moved to? I can't find it.

Areas of the course. Rule 2.

Quote

A ball is always treated as lying in only one area of the course:
    •    If part of the ball is in both the general area and one of the four specific areas of the course, it is treated as lying in that specific area of the course.

 

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
4 hours ago, Rulesman said:Re the original question; the definition previously said a ball touching the green is on the green. Where has that statement been moved to? I can't find it.

He was referring to the change that allows for relief for an embedded ball anywhere in the General Area.  Not whether or not the ball is on the green...

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
22 hours ago, David in FL said:

He was referring to the change that allows for relief for an embedded ball anywhere in the General Area.  Not whether or not the ball is on the green...

First question on original post.

Quote

First, is this ball on the green or on the fringe?


 

On 9/27/2020 at 7:19 AM, iacas said:

Areas of the course. Rule 2.

 

Doh 😳 Of course. Where else would it be. ???

Thanks

  • Like 1

Posted
6 hours ago, Rulesman said:

First question on original post.


 

Doh 😳 Of course. Where else would it be. ???

Thanks

Sorry to be splitting hairs. The specific correct reference is 13.1a: "A ball is on the putting green when any part of the ball: touches the putting green.."

Rule 2 is picking up broader context, including the general approach on how to treat a ball in more than one area of the course. 

And as the ball is on the putting green, the player does not have an entitlement to 'embedded' ball relief, but can mark the ball and repair the damage, then must replace the ball in the precise same spot.


Posted
11 hours ago, Rulesman said:

13.1a does point to the specific issue in the picture ie 2.2c

If part of the ball is both on the putting green and in another area of the course, see Rule 2.2c.

Your question was: " the definition previously said a ball touching the green is on the green. Where has that statement been moved to? I can't find it." The answer is Rule 13.1a.


  • Administrator
Posted
8 hours ago, fredf said:

Your question was: " the definition previously said a ball touching the green is on the green. Where has that statement been moved to? I can't find it." The answer is Rule 13.1a.

And 13.1a refers back to 2.2, as I noted.

Quote

If part of the ball is both on the putting green and in another area of the course, see Rule 2.2c.

Either one gives the correct answer.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
1 hour ago, iacas said:

And 13.1a refers back to 2.2, as I noted.

Either one gives the correct answer.

Agree, both of those rules get you to the correct answer to the situation in the OP but they both do not answer Rulesman's question. He asked where is the statement that a ball touching the green is on the green and there is only one rule (13.1a) that makes that statement.

Rule 2.2c does not say a ball touching the green is on the green. On the contrary, it provides a formula that explains when a ball touching the green is on the green and when a ball touching the green is NOT on the green.

 

 

 


  • Administrator
Posted

I disagree. 2.2 also addresses the situation.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
41 minutes ago, iacas said:

I disagree. 2.2 also addresses the situation.

Yes, 2.2 addresses the OP. But 2.2 does not answer Rulesman's question where in the rules does it say "a ball touching the green is on the green".

Interestingly, this 'which rule' dimension exemplifies a significant difference between Rules exams prepared on either side of the ditch. In my experience, the USGA does not grill their exam takers on Rule numbers for specific issues. The R&A invariably does and that exercise can become extremely hairy. This is one reason why the USGA exams are fairer, IMO.


  • Administrator
Posted
3 minutes ago, fredf said:

Yes, 2.2 addresses the OP. But 2.2 does not answer Rulesman's question where in the rules does it say "a ball touching the green is on the green".

Again, though it won't say exactly what you typed in quotes, it says that a ball touching the general area and another area of the course is in that other area of the course. That includes the putting green, and is the "correct" answer here, and even Rule 13.1 says "If part of the ball is both on the putting green and in another area of the course, see Rule 2.2c."

Using either rule, you can arrive at the right answer, as even 13.1 refers you to 2.2.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 1914 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.