Found Tee Shot After Taking a Drop

[Red]

Hello all,I hit my tee shot and it was assumed the ball went into a hazard. After our search I dropped near the hazard and played my third shot only to find my ball original further up. What’s the ruling on this. Thank you.

[iacas]

This is going to hinge on some things.

You “assumed” it went in the water, but did you have “KVC” - “Knowledge or virtual certainty”?

How long did you search? After your search, did you have “knowledge or virtual certainty”?

Most likely:

• You search, didn’t find your ball, and likely (in your opinion) thought you had that KVC.
• You dropped at the best estimate for where your ball crossed.
• You played the shot, as that was the ball in play.
• You found your original ball, but since you’d (likely) done the above, it was just another random ball, basically. It does tell you that maybe next time look “better” as you’d have saved yourself a shot, but it’s just a ball you pick up and ignore, basically, as the ball you substituted and played was fine.

That’s all “most likely.” If you dropped a ball WITHOUT the KVC, that is a different can of worms.

P.S. Here’s another topic about this:

 

[Esox]

I was always under the impression that once you declared a ball lost and dropped a ball, that was it. Once you declare a ball lost and drop another, the original is out of play.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Esox said:

I was always under the impression that once you declared a ball lost and dropped a ball, that was it. Once you declare a ball lost and drop another, the original is out of play.

You can’t “declare” a ball lost.

[Esox]

I'm old. We considered the act of dropping a ball a declaration that the original was lost and the dropped ball was in play. If you didn't think it was lost, why drop another?

 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Esox said:

I'm old. We considered the act of dropping a ball a declaration that the original was lost and the dropped ball was in play. If you didn't think it was lost, why drop another?

@Esox, the ball could never be “declared” lost. It could be “deemed” lost, but that was a “rules” thing - a player’s actions could result in this “deeming” but a player couldn’t say, for example, “I deem it lost.”

Also, a ball can’t be “lost” in the Rules in a penalty area (or a water hazard), even if it’s a “lost” ball in English.

This is the Rules of Golf forum, so the words we use are going to have the meanings and definitions and usages that apply in the Rules of Golf.

@Red, you replied, but you just quoted my post and didn’t say anything new.

[Rulesman]

15 hours ago, Esox said:

I'm old. We considered the act of dropping a ball a declaration that the original was lost and the dropped ball was in play. If you didn't think it was lost, why drop another?

 

If you are 'old' you will surely be familiar with the pre 2019 definition of 'Lost Ball'.

The new version says 

Lost/1 – Ball May Not Be Declared Lost

A player may not make a ball lost by a declaration. A ball is lost only when it has not been found within three minutes after the player or his or her caddie or partner begins to search for it.

For example, a player searches for his or her ball for two minutes, declares it lost and walks back to play another ball. Before the player puts another ball in play, the original ball is found within the three-minute search time. Since the player may not declare his or her ball lost, the original ball remains in play.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Rulesman

[fredf]

23 hours ago, Red said:

Hello all,I hit my tee shot and it was assumed the ball went into a hazard. After our search I dropped near the hazard and played my third shot only to find my ball original further up. What’s the ruling on this. Thank you.

A critical fact is needed to make a ruling: whether there was Knowledge or Virtual Certainty (ie 95 per cent certainty), at the time you dropped that second/substituted ball, that the ball not found had come to rest in the penalty area. You cannot "assume" where the ball is. The ruling depends on that fact. 

A. If KVC does not apply: Player has put a ball in play under an inapplicable rule (having initially played from the tee, dropping in the vicinity of the penalty area is not permitted without KVC the ball is in there). Because the player does not know the location of the original ball (when that substituted ball is dropped) the player gets one penalty stroke for taking S&D relief (18.1) and another two penalty strokes for doing so from a wrong place (14.7) - because the player was required to return to the tee to play. This is highly likely to be a serious breach, so the player must return the tee to play his fifth stroke (counting strokes are original stroke plus 3 penalties, the stroke from the wrong place does not count). Failure to return to the tee means DQ in stroke play, or zero points for the hole in Stableford, unless corrected before playing from the next tee.

B. If KVC applies: Player has proceeded correctly with the second/substituted ball and it is in play lying three.

In each case, the original ball has no further role in the hole as it has become a wrong ball.

 

 

[hunterdog]

On 12/5/2020 at 8:42 PM, fredf said:

 

B. If KVC applies: Player has proceeded correctly with the second/substituted ball and it is in play lying three.

Wouldn’t the dropped ball, now in play, be lying two?

Edited February 21, 2021 by hunterdog
Grammar

[iacas]

No. You can’t just drop a ball if you’re supposed to be proceeding under stroke and distance.

[hunterdog]

16 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

Wouldn’t the dropped ball, now in play, be lying two?

 

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

No. You can’t just drop a ball if you’re supposed to be proceeding under stroke and distance.

I’m confused, if, as fredf suggested, the player was correctly proceeding under KVC that the original ball was in a penalty area, and drops a ball, outside of the penalty area, wouldn’t the dropped ball be lying two?
 

If the ball was deemed lost, the player should return to the spot from the last play, drop, and, again, be lying two, correct?

[iacas]

1 minute ago, hunterdog said:

 

I’m confused, if, as fredf suggested, the player was correctly proceeding under KVC that the original ball was in a penalty area, and drops a ball, outside of the penalty area, wouldn’t the dropped ball be lying two?
 

If the ball was deemed lost, the player should return to the spot from the last play, drop, and, again, be lying two, correct?

Oh I get what you’re saying. The player hit the ball after dropping hence he lay three.

On 12/4/2020 at 8:07 PM, Red said:

After our search I dropped near the hazard and played my third shot…