Do Face Balanced Putter Shafts Position the Grip Closer to the Ball?

[Roenie]

If I'm not mistaken, putter shaft length is measured along the shaft down an imaginary line to where it would intersect with the sole. The shaft of a toe hang putter that has a hosel (plumber's/flare/slant neck) points more toward the heel. The shaft of a face balanced putter points to the middle of the face where the center of gravity typically is. So for a face balanced putter shaft length is typically measured from the middle of the face putting you closer to the ball whereas for toe hang putters it's measured from closer to the heel, placing you farther from the ball. Or do manufacturers compensate for this somehow?

The height of the grip end (distance between it and the ground) given the same shaft length I don't think changes noticeably between the two putter types because as the bend that creates the lie angle in a (double bend) shaft is raised up from the clubhead compared to where the kink is in a slant/plumbers neck hosel putter, creating a longer vertical section, the shaft measures longer by roughly the same amount because 70 degrees (the angle with which it the shaft points to the middle of the sole) isn't far from vertical, maths wise.

Question:
I have to position my eyes well inside the ball in order to see line correctly. If you want to maintain the same distance from the ball and replace a toe hang putter with a face balanced (double bend) one, would the latter require a flatter lie specification?

Edited April 2, 2021 by Roenie

[Roenie]

Here's an image to clarify my point:
(Couldn't edit the above post anymore.)

If you have to flatten the lie of the club on the right to get the same distance from the ball as the one on the left, the shaft will of course be pointing beyond the middle/CG and face balanced becomes slightly toe up balanced...    (only adding shaft length would raise the hand position and affect posture)

Edited April 2, 2021 by Roenie

[ChetlovesMer]

Okay, I'll take a stab at this. 
I THINK what you are getting at is that when you flatten the putter it changes where the shaft "points". Which is true. 

However, I also THINK that will not change whether the putter is face balanced or toe balanced. For two reasons.

1 - The fulcrum doesn't change. The shaft still connects to the head in the same place. The head weight doesn't change. Some putters have adjustable weights for this very reason. 

2 - Normally you don't adjust the lie angle of the putter very much anyway. You get a shorter or longer putter, perhaps just tweaking the lie angle. 

 

That's my thoughts. I'm no Alfred Einstein. 

[boogielicious]

6 hours ago, Roenie said:

If I'm not mistaken, putter shaft length is measured along the shaft down an imaginary line to where it would intersect with the sole. The shaft of a toe hang putter that has a hosel (plumber's/flare/slant neck) points more toward the heel. The shaft of a face balanced putter points to the middle of the face where the center of gravity typically is. So for a face balanced putter shaft length is typically measured from the middle of the face putting you closer to the ball whereas for toe hang putters it's measured from closer to the heel, placing you farther from the ball. Or do manufacturers compensate for this somehow?

The height of the grip end (distance between it and the ground) given the same shaft length I don't think changes noticeably between the two putter types because as the bend that creates the lie angle in a (double bend) shaft is raised up from the clubhead compared to where the kink is in a slant/plumbers neck hosel putter, creating a longer vertical section, the shaft measures longer by roughly the same amount because 70 degrees (the angle with which it the shaft points to the middle of the sole) isn't far from vertical, maths wise.

Question:
I have to position my eyes well inside the ball in order to see line correctly. If you want to maintain the same distance from the ball and replace a toe hang putter with a face balanced (double bend) one, would the latter require a flatter lie specification?

It shouldn’t change the lie at all. The putting motion is relatively slow, so face balance verses toe hang really doesn’t make that much of a difference. It is more important that you can aim the putter face. This is what’s done in a fitting. FWIW, my eyes are inside and slightly behind the ball. I was fit to a 35.5” putter and the lie was adjusted to 68. I’m a pretty decent putter too.

37 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Okay, I'll take a stab at this. 
I THINK what you are getting at is that when you flatten the putter it changes where the shaft "points". Which is true. 

However, I also THINK that will not change whether the putter is face balanced or toe balanced. For two reasons.

1 - The fulcrum doesn't change. The shaft still connects to the head in the same place. The head weight doesn't change. Some putters have adjustable weights for this very reason. 

2 - Normally you don't adjust the lie angle of the putter very much anyway. You get a shorter or longer putter, perhaps just tweaking the lie angle. 

 

That's my thoughts. I'm no Alfred Einstein. 

Big hitter Einstein.

[Roenie]

7 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I THINK what you are getting at is that when you flatten the putter it changes where the shaft "points". Which is true. 

That's exactly not what I'm getting at. 😄

I believe that red line in the left picture (=toe hang blade putter) is the amount a toe balanced putter puts you closer to the ball because in the right picture (= face balanced mallet) the entire upper section of shaft has shifted toward the middle of the face. So without changing the shaft's actual lie angle, you still end up closer to the ball. The shaft where it leaves the clubhead runs vertical for longer before it starts to bend sideways. On the toe hang putter as shown in the image, that shaft starts to bend sideways much earlier. Which does affect how far you stand from the ball, even if the shaft enters the head at the same point. Geometry Einsteinage yo. He was way ahead of his time with the lockdown hairdo.

6 hours ago, boogielicious said:

It shouldn’t change the lie at all.

That's kinda my point: it changes the distance between clubhead and player without changing the shaft's lie angle. It shifts the whole upper part of the shaft sideways less. Unless of course I've made an error in my thinking or there's something else I don't know about.

6 hours ago, boogielicious said:

The putting motion is relatively slow, so face balance verses toe hang really doesn’t make that much of a difference. It is more important that you can aim the putter face. This is what’s done in a fitting. FWIW, my eyes are inside and slightly behind the ball. I was fit to a 35.5” putter and the lie was adjusted to 68.

Thanks for the advice. How tall are you? Is yours a face balanced putter, and if so, does it now still "face balance" when balanced on a finger horizontally?

Quote

 Normally you don't adjust the lie angle of the putter very much anyway. You get a shorter or longer putter, perhaps just tweaking the lie angle. 

Yeah I think it requires a lie angle decrease plus very small shaft length increase to get it to the same spot as a toe hang putter with the same lie/length spec. However as I mentioned flattening the lie, even a little, would in theory make a face balanced putter no longer face balanced. I've asked a clubfitter to weigh in on this. I'll let you know what he says.

Regards

P.S. my thread opening post originally also included applying the pythagorian theorem, but I found a way to simplify and shorten the explanation. 😄

Edited April 2, 2021 by Roenie

[iacas]

You’re thinking about roughly half an inch quite a bit.

That half inch is quite easily changed with the lie angle too.